1 John 5:17.?

Question

In some bibles it states that this verse was not included in the oldest manuscripts. But it was found in the majority of the greek manuscripts, some say. Whats up.

Answer 1

Do you mean 1 John 5:7-8? perchance?

from the w82 3/15 issue....

Failure to Stick Loyally to God’s Word

17 Because some scribes failed to stick loyally to God’s Word, entire sections of spurious verses have crept into the “Received Text,” on which the King James Version is based. These verses were added to the original inspired text. Among such are John 8:1-11 and Mark 16:9-20. Another example of a spurious passage is found at 1 John 5:7, 8. Here the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” seem to support the Trinity. But research has revealed that these words were added by a dishonest scribe more than 1,000 years after the writing of the inspired Scriptures was completed.

18 In particular have producers of modern paraphrase Bibles freely taken liberties, sometimes in the text, sometimes in footnotes. For example, at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, Taylor’s The Living Bible reads: “For the living at least know that they will die! But the dead know nothing.” And “Whatever you do, do well, for in death, where you are going, there is no working or planning, or knowing, or understanding.” Because of not agreeing with these inspired words, the translator added the footnote: “These statements are Solomon’s discouraged opinion, and do not reflect a knowledge of God’s truth on these points!”

19 This translation also misrepresents God’s Word at Psalm 115:17. There the King James Version reads: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.” But the translator of The Living Bible apparently believes that the dead live on somewhere else, and implies this by rendering the verse: “The dead cannot sing praises to Jehovah here on earth.”

20 But let it be noted that even with the best intentions, without a correct understanding of God’s Word, a Bible translator is bound to err at times. For example, nearly all the translators believe in the Trinity and so they render John 1:1 as: “And the Word was God.” But it can also be rendered accurately otherwise, taking into account the absence of the definite article before the Greek word Theos. Thus, An American Translation renders the phrase, “And the Word was divine.” The New World Translation renders this phrase, “And the Word was a god.” Nor is it unique in doing so. This is exactly the way a revision of Archbishop Newcome’s translation rendered the phrase back in 1807.

Answer 2

John speaks of prayer and two types of sin. (Read 1 John 5:16, 17.) “A sin that does not incur death” is not willful, and it would not be wrong to pray that the repentant wrongdoer be forgiven.But it would be wrong to pray concerning “a sin that does incur death” because this is willful sin against the holy spirit, for which forgiveness is impossible.
On the otherhand for many, many years the Bible verses at 1 John 5:7, 8 were used in an attempt to prove the Trinity. This was because they contained the words: “The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” (Douay) According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the ‘Holy Ghost’ are three persons in one God, coeternal, and equal in power, glory and substance.
Today, however, these verses are rarely so used. Why? Because, as a recent Roman Catholic version, The Jerusalem Bible, explains in a footnote, they are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself” and therefore “are probably a gloss that has crept into the text.” In other words, they are spurious.
Without the spurious addition these two verses read: “For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” Just who are these “three witness bearers,” and on what are they in agreement?
They are in agreement regarding the truth expressed in the two preceding verses: “Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth.”

Answer 3

We don't have origional copies of the books and letters that have become the Bible. What we have are many, many copies and fragments of copies that were copied by Jewish scribes and passed down. So some of the verses, like 1 John 5:17 were only on some of the later copies written in Greek.

Answer 4

That means it is not in the oldest manuscripts, but it is in the majority of the Greek manuscripts. Does that clear it up for ya' ?

Answer 5

"It was rendered into Greek, and inserted in one Greek manuscript of the 16th century, while it was missing in all the earlier manuscripts."

The statement that is was in the majority of greek manuscripts is a foollish statement, of what AGE of those manuscripts???

The ADAM CLARK Commentary has a thorough explanation on this passage, which is where I got the first part of this statment.

Answer 6

That applies to verses 7 and 8. The early texts do not have 'in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth

That leaves,
7...For there are three that bear witness:
8...the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

grace2u

Answer 7

I have pasted some statements about that verse (1 John 5:7,8)

***That First John was actually written by John the apostle is indicated by its close resemblance to the fourth Gospel, which he unmistakably wrote. For example, he introduces the letter by describing himself as an eyewitness who has seen “the word of life . . . , the everlasting life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us,” expressions strikingly similar to those with which John’s Gospel opens. Its authenticity is attested by the Muratorian Fragment and by such early writers as Irenaeus, Polycarp, and Papias, all of the second century C.E. According to Eusebius (c. 260-342 C.E.), the authenticity of First John was never questioned. However, it is to be noted that some older translations have added to chapter 5 the following words at the end of verse 7and the beginning of verse 8: “In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” (King James Version) But this text is not found in any of the early Greek manuscripts and has obviously been added to bolster the Trinity doctrine. Most modern translations, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include these words in the main body of the text.—1 John 1:1, 2.


***At times, however, considerations other than love for God’s Word influenced the work of copyists and translators. Consider four examples: (1) The Samaritans built a temple on Mount Gerizim as a rival to the temple in Jerusalem. In support of that, an interpolation was made in the Samaritan Pentateuch at Exodus 20:17. The command was added, as if part of the Decalogue, to build an altar of stone on Mount Gerizim and to offer sacrifices there. (2) The person who first translated the book of Daniel for the Greek Septuagint took liberties in his renderings. He inserted statements that he thought would explain or enhance what was in the Hebrew text. He omitted details that he thought would be unacceptable to readers. When he translated the prophecy concerning the time of Messiah’s appearance, found at Daniel 9:24-27, he falsified the stated time period and added, altered, and transposed words, apparently with a view to making the prophecy seem to support the struggle of the Maccabees. (3) In the fourth century C.E., in a Latin treatise, an overzealous advocate of Trinitarianism evidently included the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one” as if these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7. Later that passage was put right into the text of a Latin Bible manuscript. (4) Louis XIII (1610-43), in France, authorized Jacques Corbin to translate the Bible into French in order to offset the efforts of Protestants. With that objective in view, Corbin included some textual interpolations, including reference to “the holy sacrifice of the Mass” at Acts 13:2.


***“For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”—1Jo 5:7, 8.

This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (eighth ed., 1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus Merk (ninth ed., 1964); José María Bover (fifth ed., 1968); United Bible Societies (third ed., 1975); Nestle-Aland (26th ed., 1979).

After “witness bearers” the cursive mss No. 61 (16th century) and No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vgc add the words: “in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth.” But these words are omitted by אABVgSyh,p.

***KJ reads: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (Dy also includes this Trinitarian passage.) However, NW does not include the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” (RS, NE, TEV, JB, NAB also leave out the Trinitarian passage.)

Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

Answer 8

In these cases, it is good to go back to the early Christian teachings to see if they taught on this verse. In most of these cases, it does no harm either way. The Bible often repeats ideas and doctrines so that if someone seeks to eliminate it in one spot, they must seek to do the same elsewhere.

Answer 9

Yes, it was found in the majority of Greek manuscripts

A sin leading to death may refer to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, rejecting Christ as Savior, rejecting humanity or deity of Jesus, a specific sin such as murder, or a life of habitual sin. Whatever it is, the sins seems to be flagrant violation of the Christan community.

Answer 10

So what is wth this verse "there is a sin that does not lead to death". That is news to me. I'm assuming that's the verse you mean. I would be interested in hearing more on that.