2ND law of thermodynamics?

Question

my chem teacher told me to ask evoultionist what they thought about it.

i was just wandering what they had to say.

i'm not out to offend, just to learn please keep that in mind.

Answer 1

You should get a different teacher to teach you science, IF he (or she) told you that evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
It does not.

The 2nd Law states that entropy in a closed system tends to increase. Entropy is defined as a measure of the unavailability of a system’s energy to do work. Often, entropy is changed to disorder. However, disorder is not the correct term, because entropy refers only to energy, not to arrangement, order, disorder, organization, or complexity.
Just usable energy, nothing more.

So, when a creationist tells you how a tornado doesn't fly through a junkyard and put together a Jumbo Jet, and that complex organs such as the mammalian eye could not have evolved by chance, because to do so would violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics; they are illustrating their ignorance of science in several different ways.

First of all, the 2nd Law only applies to closed systems. The Earth is not a closed system, because it gets energy from outside of itself (The Sun). And enough energy misses the Earth or is reflected back into space to account for the differential in entropy.

Second of all, no scientist says that anything evolves by chance. Biochemistry and natural selection are NOT chance.

Thirdly, the jumbo jet in the junkyard, or the argument commonly known as "Paley's Watch," however stated, is an Argument by Anology. Arguments by Anology are always failures as proof of or against something being true, because no anology parallels the subject beingh debated enough to make it a valid argument. In the case of the Jumbo Jet being compared to evolved animals and systems of animals, a Jumbo Jet is a lousy anology. Jumbo Jets do not reproduce, take in nutrients from their environment, excrete waste, or pass on their DNA to any offspring. They do not actively interact with their ecology, make adjustments to changes within that ecology, and do not change over time as living things DO.

Last, as I stated before, entropy is not disorder in the commonly used sense of the word. To confuse entropy with the disorder of a junkyard is a total misconstruation of the term.

It's just a lousy argument, and was easily defeated even in Darwin's day when Paley first used it against him. Intelligent Design is the same argument, disquised under a different moniker.

Argument from Ignorance- You don't know and can't explain how it happened, therefore literal creation must be true.

Argument from Incredulity- I can't imagine how the eye could have evolved, therefore literal creation must be true.

The second to last link explains in laymens terms more about the 2nd Law. The last link counters the argument your teacher either wanted you to learn about, or was trying to use to instill doubt as to whether or not evolution is a fact.

Evolution is a theory, designed to explain a fact.

El Chistoso

Answer 2

I find it very hard to believe that a chem teacher would use the term "evolutionist", but in answer to your question,
First, let's define what the second law of thermodynamics actually says. It doesn't say that everything tends towards disorder, (like creationists will claim.) What it actually says is heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease.

The Earth is not a closed system.

See http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html for information on this, and why the claim that the second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible is a false claim.

Answer 3

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of a closed system is always increasing. The only closed system we know of is the entire universe.

Entropy is a property that can be measured (strictly speaking, one can measure only CHANGES in entropy, but I don't think that's a distinction that is important to you right now) but it is hard to put into words. Think of entropy as the non-availability of energy.

There are nitwits who have tried to use the second law of thermodynamics as "proof" that abiogenesis and evolution are impossible, but they are wrong. It is true that the origin of life on earth entailed a temporary and local decrease in entropy, but that local decrease was more than paid for by an increase in entropy of the sun. Abiogenesis and evolution do not violate the second law of thermodynamics, or any other law of physics.

All the best, Xylo

Answer 4

What is an evolutionist? I assume you mean Scientist.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that in a closed system, (which does not apply to earth, since we get energy from the sun), things tend toward a state of disorder. The universe itself, as far as anyone knows IS a closed system. It contains, however, components that are not closed to input from other components (energy, gravity, etc.)

If a chemistry teacher raised that question, I would have to wonder what kind of school you go to and what that teacher's angle is.

As to the odd word "evolutionist", do you call someone who accepts the reality of gravity a "Gravitationist?" That's silly. Over 99% of the world's Scientists, accept the observed reality that evolution occured and occurs. It happens every time there is a birth or a death within a population.

Ask your teacher if Science normally describes situations in an ideal state, something that rarely happens in nature.

Answer 5

Stated quite simply for your chem teacher, who it seems does not understand the subject at all:

Entropy always increases... UNLESS you add energy to the system. Like for instance how the sun adds energy to the earth system. For a more thorough treatment of this subject, ask a REAL science teacher, who actually has some understanding of the subject they draw a paycheck for teaching and does not have a hidden agenda of promoting "creation science" nonsense to unsuspecting youths. Sorry to rant.

Good luck getting any truly useful information from your teacher. Hopefully you will find some real teachers when you get to college.

Answer 6

It is the tendency for entropy (disorder) to increase. Natural selection can easily reduce entropy. For example, according to the second law of thermodynamics, allele frequencies should equilibrate through populations via random mating (similar to diffusion removing a concentration gradient). However, this doesn't happen when natural selection favors particular alleles, which leads to nonrandom changes in allele frequencies in a population. For more information, look at the Hardy-Weinberg equation. Mutations are random, but natural selection is not!

Answer 7

Tell your chem teacher to explain to you why the 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system and how that applies to the earth, since it exchanges energy with the sun.

Answer 8

It is inappropriate for the chemistry teacher to argue with a hypothetical "evolutionist" and put you in the middle. If he wants to learn about what scientists have to say about evolution, or the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or the big bang, he can get a book out of the library.

Answer 9

Bleah... I was more interested in learning how to fizzle U238 to U235 for bomb usage in the Manhattan Project. Then there was the whole Cold War "upgrades" to ensure "MAD"... ahhhh those were the days...

Give Wohler and Avogadro my best... Oppie still rules though.

_()_

Answer 10

Thermodynamics have nothing to do with evolution,You are thinking about the big bang theory.The 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn't disprove that either. look it up