Reformation?

Question

Been trying to think of a way to ask this that will not offend Catholics as I do not want to do that. However I do want people's opinions about this. So I all I can do is say to Catholics is I mean no offense. On to the question.

Catholics often talk about Jesus' promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the church. And claim this as a proof that the Catholic church is the true church. Isn't is just possible that God was responsible for the reformation. Not to bash the Catholic church but during the medieval times and before the reformation the Catholic church had allowed corruption in. They were doing unbiblical things such as selling indulgences. Isn't is possible to prevent Hell from prevailing against the church that God split off a remnant still faithful to Him and this remnant became the protestant church? A side effect being that the Catholic church had to reform itself as well. What do you think?

Gen - God often lets things go longer than we would. He is patient until roused to wrath. Just look at His patience with the Israelites in the OT. He tried and tried to bring them back and only after they finally pushed Him too far did He punish them.

Gen - yes I think if we get too far off the path God has set we will be punished. I seriously doubt He finds all the denominations pleasing. However other than the JW's and mormons, which I don't believe to really be Christian, I can't think of anything protestants teach that is extremely wrong. Most protestant churches try extremely hard to follow the Bible as close as possible. If we drift from that though yes we could be punished.

Answer 1

I believe that you are correct Edge. God does much of his work through his "true" followers.

Answer 2

If you check most Churches use only part of the scriptures as a base for their religion. Several use rituals, you have to learn and repeat verses before the church. Why the rituals? If you read the New Testament what does Jesus say you have to do to be saved, 'believe on me'. He does not even say you have to be baptized. He used it as sign and therefore we should follow him.
What gets me, more than anything else is the Christian and the Islamic Religions have their bases in Judaism yet each put down the other.

Answer 3

The authority of the Church rests on three pillars:


Scripture: The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is to be read as the earliest Christians read it: in the light of Tradition and under the guidance of those ordained to teach. The Books of the Old Testament were put together by the Hebrews in the Septuagint (ca 300 B.C.), which includes the seven Books called "Deuterocanonical" by Catholics and "Apocryphal" by Protestants, and was the Old Testament used by the Apostles. The Books of the New Testament were made canonical over time and were first listed over 300 years after the Resurrection. [see more on the Canon of the Bible and the Septuagint and on Sola Scriptura: The Fallacy of the Bible alone as the Rule of Faith]


Tradition: the teachings which the Church has preserved and passed down from Christ, His Apostles, and the unanimous teachings of the early Church Fathers (1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6).

(The above two pillars are referred to as "The Deposit of Faith")


Magisterium: the teaching authority of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The teachings of Catholic hierarchs have three different levels of fallibility:

Extraordinary Magisterium:
Extraordinary infallible teaching given in the very rare exercise of the Pope alone, only when, in his capacity as Pastor and Doctor of all Christians and by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a dogma concerning faith and morals so as to be held by the whole Church and does so ex cathedra -- i.e., "from the chair" of Peter. Also called the "Solemn Magisterium."


Ordinary Magisterium:
Ordinary infallible teaching by Pope, Bishop, or anyone with the proper authority to teach which illumines doctrine that has always been believed and accepted by the universal Church. Also called the "Universal Magisterium" or the "Constant Magisterium" and its exercise can be recognized when a teaching is one that is has been held "always and everywhere" by the Church. [Note: some Catholics forget this category of teaching and believe that only if a teaching is solemnly defined ex cathedra is it infallible. These "Catholics," forgetting Tradition, are the "liberals" and "modernists" one always sees on TV]


Authentic Magisterium:
Teaching by Pope, Bishop, or anyone with the proper authority to teach, that does not fit into the above two categories. All authorized teaching is owed proper, intelligent, prayerful religious assent, but must be resisted if it leads to sin, compromises the Faith and the salvation of souls, or contradicts the above two levels of Magisterium, the Sacred Deposit of Faith, Scripture, and Tradition. [Note: some otherwise wonderful Catholics forget this category of teaching and think everything the Pope does and says is "infallible," an attitude that borders on papolatry. These Catholics are the "neo-conservatives" or "neo-Catholics" who defend the novelties since Vatican II and some of the scandalous behaviors of Bishops and the Holy Father -- e.g., Qu'ran-kissing, ecumenism that leads to indifferentism, etc. -- but while still truly trying to be orthodox.]

Answer 4

There were many reformations in the 16th century. There also was no one Protestant Reformation for there were the Lutheran,Zwinglian,
Calvinist, Anglican,
Anabaptist,Socinian/Unitarian, Spiritualist
and other reformations that have resulted in the 30,000+ Protestant denominations since there seem to be constant splits due to the "Principle of the Bible Alone" without authoritative Apostolic Tradition and agreed-upon authoritative teaching office like that of the Pope and Councils in Catholic Christianity.

There were also Catholic reformations 'movements like the Franciscan. Many Catholic, especially many saints, that clamored for "Reformation in head[Pope and Curia and bishops] and members[of the Church on Earth]" with the leaders of the church constantly called to account for fidelity inliving and teaching the faith and morals of the Catholic Church ,founded and directed by Christ.

Many of these reform movements like Erasmianism wanted more teaching of the Bible and deeper Christ-centered devotional life as well as return to the writings ,practices and virtues of the Early Church,especially those of the Apostles and Church Fathers and an uprooting of superstitions and the Church-condemned sin of simony, buying and selling church offices,sacraments and blessings like indulgences.

.The Carmelite Reform taught a strong personal relationship of friendship with Christ as Lord and Savior. The Jesuits taught meditating on the life,Saving Death and Resurrection of Christ and had a strong missionary movement which Protestants would not have until Pietism of the 18th Century.

I do not believe that it was or is God's will that the Protestants break off from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Papal Communion. I do not think that it was or is God's will that the almost innumerable Protestant splittings-off should abandon that fullness of evangelical and orthodox Christian faith that is the Catholic Faith with its immense and varied spiritual richness.

I strongly believe that the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against the institution and communion of the one Catholic Church that Jesus founded. The Church on Earth is always in need of reform in the area of practice,discipline,language and expression and since it is composed of weak sinners but she is still the Bride of Christ and all Trinitarian Christians are in "real but imperfect communion " with her and if they are in the state of grace Non Catholic Christians as well as Catholic Christians are real members of the One Body of Christ which joins the saints gone on and the struggling saints on earth.

I think that those reformers who stayed in the commun ion of the Catholic Church were even more faithful reformers and "remnant" than those who left(or who felt that they were pushed out)

Those who want to reform the One Church should seriously consider joining the Catholic Church if after serious study of the teachings of the Catholic Church and prayer they realize that God is calling them to "come home". Reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church(which is widely available even on the Net) is a good place to start.

God bless and thanks for this question
Let us all pray for each other.

Answer 5

It's possible, sure, all things are possible but why would God have let these beliefs and traditions go on for so long if they were wrong?

Aha!! So then Edge, does that mean that God let the Reformation happen and will eventually punish the Protestants? It can be argued both ways here

Answer 6

The whole Church wasn't selling indulgences, though. You have a good point, but your definition of "Church" doesn't fit the RC's definition. Here's a star.