Disputed Josephus quote?

Question

This may not be the best forum for this question but it is sort of religious. The quote below is by Josephus and calls Jesus the Christ. This passage is disputed and said to be false. However it is found in every Greek version of Josephus existing as well as in the Hebrew and Arabic versions. With some slight changes in the Arabic versions. The evidence that this is added is basically "it does not sound like something Josephus would say". This makes no sense to me. This seems to be extra-Biblical proof from the time of Jesus that He both existed and was considered the Christ. This was written in the first century. So doesn't this provide the proof outside the Bible that Jesus existed? It doesn't sound like something Josephus would say seems to me to be a lousy excuse to exclude it. What do you think?

And there arose about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure. He led away many Jews, and also Greeks. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemned him to the cross on his impeachment by the chief men among us, those who had loved him at first did not cease; for he appeared to them on the third day alive again, the divine prophets having spoken these and thousands of other wonderful things about him: and even now the tribe of Christians, so named after him, has not yet died out.

oozɐƃ ʇɐǝɹƃ ǝɥʇ - Antiquities of the Jews which this quote was written is thought to have been written around 92-93 AD. At most 60 years after Jesus by someone who was born around the time Jesus died.

Answer 1

Most scholars don't think the passage was completely made up. They think it was redacted. Josephus was not a Christian, so it's highly doubtful he would've said, "He was the Christ." He may have said, "He was called the Christ," or something like that, but if Josephus thought he really was the Christ, he would've been a Christian, which he wasn't.

The Arabic version is almost exactly the same as scholars have reconstructed what Josephus actually said.

Yes, I do think this counts as evidence for Jesus' existence, as does the passage about James, the brother of Jesus. But Jesus' existence isn't disputed by scholars. It's only disputed by some popular writers, and of course if you ask the guy on the street, you'll get all kinds of unfounded opinions.

Answer 2

It is considered by most scholars to be a redaction, the most likely culprit being Eusubius who was on record as saying that lying was okay if it won converts to the faith.

these 3 links go into the Josephus "evidence' in some detail.

http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html#FA

bottom line, it is moot as Josephus wasn't even alive during the supposed time of Jesus. ( he was born in 37 CE and didn't write Antiquities until 93 CE) No matter what he said, it would still be hearsay......as is the rest of the Bible. The quote itself is really not very convincing, and has a very "Once upon a time, in a land far away..." feel to it.

There is nothing recorded of Jesus by any of the writers and historians that were actually walking the earth in Palestine at the same time as the fictional man-god.

Beyond any of the above.....even if there actually was a person called Jesus, who some people worshipped as the Christ (which is Greek for "messiah") ....that still isn't proof he was a supernatural being, just that the ancients were just as gullible as modern day Christians

Answer 3

The biggest problem with that quote is that Josephus intentionally avoided any mention of Christianity. In the 90's AD, just after the Jewish revolt, Josephus (in the employ of the emperor) wanted to distance Judaism from any "radical" sects. The fact that he doesn't mention Christianity anywhere else in the text is evidence that the quote is spurious.

As for whether or not Jesus really existed, not a single reputable scholar questions the existence of the historical Christ. It is really pathetic how supposedly logical, educated and intelligent people will actually go against mainstream scholarship just to deny that Jesus of Nazareth actually lived.

Answer 4

I don't dispute the quote. I have a translation by William Whiston in front of me. My question is as to the veracity of Josephus himself. Have you read anything of him, personally? Do you consider him an absolutely trustworthy historian? Then too, there is one lousy paragraph out of seven hundred pages in small print and Josephus is merely repeating what he has heard, not anything he saw. I really think too much importance is laid upon the second hand account of "a man named Jesus who was called the Christ". That is my opinion and I am sure you have heard the saying about opinions.

Answer 5

Josephus was a very pious Jew. As such a messiah such as the one everyone proclaims is out of bounds.

He also wrote around 70 AD. so, he must have been very young at the time. He was also well known for his embellishments to the truth.

Further, to have written as much as he supposedly did, having a few sentences is far from being a fact, and way off the track for a pious Orthodox Jew.

Answer 6

Thank you, I always wondered about that... I knew there was backup inside the 'earthly realm.' This is the passage I have been looking for. If no one else says it to you, today, Bless you!
Yes, I do agree that is is a baseless claim. Just to say 'it doesn't sound like something he would say,' is rather biased and impulsive. If it is written in his scrolls, who else could it possibly be? Who else would be privy to that information and want SO BADLY to be right that they would falsify information? I agree with you, being the person he was, I am sure that anyone tampering with his works would have met with a horrible end. He was very much a historian and terribly picky about his accuracy, This much I remember.

(You are all forgetting...he was a JEW, he clung to the hope of a Messiah, he clung to the pentatuech)

Answer 7

Josephus could have not wrote that sooner than 40 years after the supposed Jesus. That is called a stretch of hearsay in even the most backward judicial systems. So, what were you trying to show with this hearsay?

Answer 8

It's been proven that the words in Josephus' writings were put there at a later time, and not by Josephus himself.

Peace

Answer 9

Do you know how much the Romans and the other civilized people wrote at the time? If such things were happening there would have been a number of writers who would have at least mentioned it. Since we only have one or two sketchy samples of such, and those have been debated on being written in fact by the said authors, I would say you have no valid evidence from anyone from that time period.

Answer 10

When you say "found in every greek version of Josephus"
You DO realize that there are only two right?
And that they were doctored in the middle ages? The parchment shows obvious signs of scraping and the ink is different.
Sorry, but Josephus's tale is hardly convincing.