Why are traditional martial artists so sensitive?

Question

In UFC 1 the world learned that if you don't know submissions and the person you're fighting is good at submissions, you're going to lose a fight. That's a fact, not an opinion. It's not saying that if two fighters both have some submission knowledge the one that's better at submissions will win. It's just saying that if a guy that's studied nothing but tkd for 5 years fights a guy that studied nothing but bjj for 5 years, the bjj guy will win 99.9% of the time, size being equal. That's no revelation, it's just common sense, but when you say it on this forum all these sensitive traditional martial artists get their feelings hurt and start attacking you (verbally). Why is that? I think people don't want to acknowledge that what they've been spending their time on is inferior to something else that they could have spent their time on. Perhaps tkd/kung fu/karate and the like just attract an insecure type of person. Thoughts?

Answer 1

The UFC is not the measure of all things, you know.

A lot of people, even in the traditional arts, seem to forget that and get their feelings ruffled. I work a 9 to 5 job and practice martial arts on evenings and weekends. There's no way my training would prepare me to take on a professional fighter, but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish, either.
People need to be more realistic about what they're trying to accomplish, and what they hope they can accomplish.

There's more to martial arts than just measuring against other fighters. It's a personal challenge, a way of seeing the world and one's self, a quest for improvement, etc... And there's a big difference between preparing for self-defense and preparing for fighting. One of the main ones is in fighting, you're committed to staying on the spot and mixing it up till the biter end. Self-defense carries no such obligation with it. Fighting is about winning; Self-defense is about surviving.

Answer 2

I'll give you two reasons.

1) The UFC is not martial arts - there is no philosophical standpoint, no character development, no internal or external energy usage, no honor or value system taught in it's structure, and no real art. It's a mish mash of various pieces from various systems organized in such a way that the two can throw sloppy techniques and grasp at one another until one is fortunate enough to lock into a hold. This is not martial arts, it's fighting. Is this to say that these men are not good fighters? Surely not - they're top in that field for a reason. However, to call something that is obviously not martial arts when generations of teachers and students have dedicated their lives to creating that system, that is dishonorable on many levels. Most of the issues with the UFC would be solved simply by amending the name.

2) Everyone in UFC following refers to the UFC1 event where a martial artist was beaten by a grappler. WOnderful - you're basing your entire argument on an isolated event that was never re-tested or tried again with different people, making the grounds for that debate rather shaky. You say that if a martial artist is locked into a submission hold it's all over - he's toast. Maybe, but by the same coin, if Jet Li delivered a planted roundhouse into the side of your UFC man's head, the fight wouldn't have to wait for a submission. That's the human variable - you can't base an entire debate on a single and isolated event that was never re-tried. Remember - it's not just as simple as "getting someone into a figure four."

Those are my thoughts.

Answer 3

Being a traditional martial artist I have to disagree with your reasoning behind what you are saying and also what you are saying to some extent. Not all traditional martial artists feel that way and some have been studying, working, and teaching ground fighting and Ju-jitsu long before the UFC or MMA came along as well as teaching ways to defeat that style of fighting along with standup martial arts. There is a reason why the UFC does not allow certain things like downward elbow strikes to the spine or punches to the back of the head when a person shots on you, finger jabs to the eyes, biting, fish-hooking, head butting, and attacks to the groin, neck, throat, and knees and we have worked on those aspects for twenty years in my programs and all of these things are required for promotion in my studio. I think sometimes the resistance you are encountering is due to this fact and some believe that their skills or that of their art will allow them to counter that type of fighting and the fact that the UFC does not allow it for the safety of the fighters lends some creadence to that.

Now I will agree also that there are a lot of paper tigers out there especially with the way schools, instructors, and some styles have taught, promoted, and prostituted their art for the sake of greater financial reward that could not fight in a stand up situation very well, much less handle one that went to the ground.

I have met many fighters including some UFC and MMA type ones that you see on television every week. All of them have always given me respect and never looked down their nose at me or my art nor do I look down or disrespect them. I did encounter one whose friend was a little drunk and tried to orchestrate a fight between me and his UFC friend and once we established what that was all about his drunk friend's butt was on the line and the UFC fighter was more than willing to let his drunk friend get it kicked by me just so he would learn a lesson. I also think that no matter who you are, or what style you study, or what it is that you are about there will always be someone out there that does not respect you and I would say they probably don't matter. Most good fighters and martial artists let their skill, knowledge, and abilities speak for themselves and their fighting do their talking for them and respect others of simular abilities and skills irreguardless of discipline.

Answer 4

It's funny how people who have no idea what they're talking about have their own opionions. So cute. Ok, Royce Gracie having the natural talent to beat all these people doesn't mean if you yourself take BJJ for 3 years you'll be choking out Mirko Filipovic. Certainly not. Also, there are rules in UFC unfortunately for you there are a lot of arts out there that strike pressure points (illegal in UFC), do cheap shots of all sorts all for the glory of survival. I'll tell you one thing though, if i saw a master at Krav Maga and a master of BJJ meet up on the streets i'd put my money on the Krav Maga specialist. In a stupid UFC ring with stupid gloves on and with no meaning at all other than to say 'who won' as opposed to 'who survived' the BJJ would have a 'better chance' not 99.9%. Definately not. An advantage doesn't mean 99.9% chance to win. And if we use your type of thinking, to beat anyone 99.9% of the time who does BJJ then do what Sakuraba does....

12/9/2000 Win Ryan Gracie PRIDE 12 Decision (Unanimous) 1 10:00
8/27/2000 Win Renzo Gracie PRIDE 10 Technical Submission (Kimura) 2 9:43
5/1/2000 Win Royce Gracie PRIDE Grand Prix 2000 Finals TKO (Forfeit) 6 15:00
11/21/1999 Win Royler Gracie PRIDE 8 Technical Submission (Kimura) 2 13:16

You lose.

Answer 5

First off, you are talking about a sport fight. It is not the same in the real thing. There is no referee, no padded ring, and definitely no rules. I do agree that some grappling skills are needed in every style. Almost every style does have some grappling involved, though if it is taught or not is up to the instructors. Some of the traditional stylists have absolutely no compulsion to climb into a ring, but if attacked on the street will beat the living snot out of someone. Brazilian jujitsu is a very effective style, especially in a one on one fight. On a rough concrete sidewalk, with three other guys behind him, do you really want to try to take someone to the ground though? These are my thoughts, and I hope I didn't offend anyone. I have been in both types of fights, ring and street, this is what I have gained through experience.

Answer 6

I am a traditionalist and I teach anti grappling technique as our grappling requirements.As we do purely self defense we train to handle all potential attacks and we learn not to play their game .
One of my black belts asked if he could take BJJ classes I said yes go ahead encouraged him to do so as all skills are important.
He had some words with a guy in a bar and walked away he was jumped from behind and he easily took his attacker to the ground his mistake was getting on the ground with him where the guys 3 freinds put him in hospital with a concussion and some broken ribs.He was fortunate he didn't get killed .He still takes his bjj lessons but I dont think he will be going to the ground again any time soon.All knowledge has it's place and the ground in a street fight is not one of them.

Answer 7

People refuse to admit that modern martial arts can be better than traditional one. The best fighters arent tkd or karate or kung fu or judo or even bjj for that matter. A real fighter is someone who trains EVERY WAY they can and is good at EVERYTHING. Like MMA fighters. There is no perfect art so you must train in all aspects to be a good fighter. That hurts feelings because everyone likes to think that their art is the best. Ive been in tkd, boxing, and now mma. The most useful by far is mma. So all you panzies who whine about new age taking over the stone age, get over it.

Answer 8

My thoughts are that you are posing a very loaded question.
I consider myself a traditionalist and I am not very sensitive.
I also don't believe that grappling and submissions are universally awesome.
They are just another weapon in an arsenal.
It is important to know that traditional martial artist should study all aspects of fighting. Karate students in Okinawa wrestled as children and they did this before learning to strike and block.

As for your thought that submissions are the ultimate pinnacle of martial arts based on one pay per view sporting event is ridiculous. In the real world a submission really isn't conducive to certain situations. If more than one person is attacking me the last thing I am going to do is wrap up with one and go the ground. Also, i don't want to go to the ground when it is concrete or asphalt. Also, in the street, size is always equal.
You should go back to the drawing board and re-examine your philosophy.

Answer 9

First off in UFC 1 all the so called "masters" were american guys with mullets. Only about 8% of traditionalists in america train how they do in the eastern countries. Even though i work a day job i still train 15-20 hours per week (or atleast i did before i just got injured). I mean most people dont even know how to use traditional arts. Thats why arts like boxing and kickboxing are popular because they are easier to pick up. Iam not biased at all, i have borrowed some techs from muay thai,boxing bjj.....but iam confident of my kung fu skills. Ask shi yan ming, he'll tell ya. I train in the old fashions, weight vest,run with logs, spar with weight vest, hitting tres, 30 min. horse stance. MMA fighters train really hard, but look at okinawan karatekas or shaolin monks. I would give them credit too. Bottom line is,.....its not the style, its how its taught and used by the induvidual. Hate to say it but most "real" traditional arts are dead and impractical in todays high-paced society. My advice to any martial artist is to be open,constantly try to be innovatiove and learn, and remember the "bushido" or "tao" of the real martial arts.......and be careful and dont get injuried....work those rotator cuffs!

p.s.- kung fu has Qin Na, chinese fast wrestling,tai chi push hands....all grappling styles, even karate has some basics in their forms

Answer 10

Most of the answers here have said almost everything that I was going to, but I'll just add one thing: UFC nuts and their kin who swear by MMA every day of their lives come from a position of sheer and irritating egotism, and they typically use a nongenuine standard of comparison.

Randy S had probably the best answer on here in my opinion: you almost never get individuals training their more traditional arts and styles to the level that it was taught in feudal times. You can scarcely compare the practitioners of an art--any art--today, who typically hold down full-time jobs, schools, and familial and social responsibilities and do martial arts on the side as opposed to families who spent their lives raised on the study and perfection of a particular martial style. Something that many people, especially those who talk down martial arts altogether, tend to forget is that to effectively grasp an art as a fighting style takes literal decades of training. People give beginners a hard time after their first few days, weeks, or months of lessons when they still typically can't use their art to its full effectiveness and are, for all intents and purposes, barely scratching the surface by that point. True combative proficiency typically doesn't come until your higher degrees of black belt for most of the complicated arts.

I hate joining the usual crowd of using the Human Weapon as a reference to my facts, but just take a look at the episode on Judo and see how Chambers did against the champion. The judo champ trained a good chunk of his life in the old styles of training and, even though he hadn't really fought a ground-pounder before, he just denied Chambers the chance to take it to the ground. For that matter, look at pretty much every episode and see how the lifelong practitioners of the different arts deal with Chambers or Duff and give them a run for their money.