Can non Jews?

Question

ever truly understand what it means to be Jewish, and how we feel about Israel?

No offence at all is intended by my question. I don't think I could ever know how it feels to be a Muslim, or a Catholic.

It's just that many non Jews are clearly comfortable and confident telling us what should happen with Israel etc... Again, I'm just being candid, really no offence intended. I wouldn't DREAM of making judgements about other faiths; why are some people so comfortable doing so with us?!

Davey, good points, thank you. I just notice that many, many people who as you say 'don't agree' with Israeli policies have never set foot in the middle east, and base their view on less than detailed knowledge of Israel etc.

PS, sorry but you are wrong. Mention something to support your opinion if you so sure.

Jason C, no, that is not true.

RILLIFAN, you have totally misunderstood. I never said that we were 'special', you alone have used that word. My question was perfectly reasonable and in response, you have not only gone off at a tangent. As for your asking me when I will feel ashamed; I have no blood on my hands. If you can't give a logical and civil answer, then be quiet.

Thank you Redisca; as always you are the voice of reason and sanity :)

Rillifan, once again you are putting words in my mouth. Not once have I ever said it's wrong to criticise Israel. I am simply remarking that in my own personal experience, many non Jews will state that Israel does not have the 'right' either to exist, or to defend herself. If you care to read Redisca's answer, she has understood perfectly. As for your remark about terrorists and those who celebrate, I'm not sure how you're applying that to me or my question. You seem determined to have an argument. You have misunderstood what I asked and you are twisting my comments. Kindly shut up!

indrigog: sorry to have to say this but you have rather just proved my exact point :) You claim we are partly to blame because we are 'insular'. In fact, in Germany, prior to WW2, the Jews were the MOST assimilated and integrated that we have probably ever been, anywhere! So you see why you prove my point?!

RILLIFAN - is there no limit to how much you can misunderstand? I was not making an assumption when I said that SOME non Jews are comfortable making judgements about Jews and Israel; I was stating a fact, based on what I have encountered on this site.

Answer 1

Rillifan, you totally misunderstood this question. It's not Paperback considers Jews special -- it's that the rest of the world apparently considers Jews special enough that our fate is perpetually up to others to decide. People are very free in questioning whether Israel should even exist, and are surprised when Jews react with outrage. But suggest that Ireland should not exist (let it get reabsorbed into the UK), or that Greece should not exist (Italians and Turks were there "first", and the identity of people who ruled Greece 2500 years ago doesn't count -- right?), or that Sicily should be given back to Austria, or that Ukraine should be part of Russia, as it was for some 350 years, or that the Ionic coast of Turkey should be given to Greece (if we decide that the people who lived there 2500 years ago DO count), etc. -- and see what kind of reaction you get. It is inconceivable even to suggest that a certain country should not exist -- unless that country is Israel. Why is that, I wonder? Would the "liberal and open" people of the world feel differently if that country was not populated by Jews?

As to the main question -- sure, Paperback, non-Jews can understand. All you have to do is turn the tables. Bring up the question of whether THEIR country of origin has a right to exist, or whether its present borders are legitimate. Trust me -- an argument can always be made to the contrary on both counts.

EDIT: No Rillifan, no one asks those questions, except rhetorically, as I just have. Not only don't people like Paperback argue that we are better than anybody, but we keep arguing daily that we are just like any other people. (We also don't add the blood of little Gentile children to matzah, believe it or not.) It is folks like you who keep treating us "special" (subject to special standards and hurdles, that is). Also, contrary to what you have said, documenting unfairness to Jews does not represent a "judgment of other faiths" -- unless of course we are talking about some faith which has anti-Semitism (okay, Jew-hatred) as one of its tenets. Now, do you know of any such faith? Of course, if you show me that anti-Semitism (oops, Jew-hatred) has attained the status of a religion, the question of an apology for judgmentalism may be put to Paperback. Until then, kindly quit bootstrapping.

Norcalise: Whatever. Let's see you keep that attitude when YOU are being judged.

Answer 2

Only very rare non-Jews who have devoted decades of study can understand more or less what it means to be Jewish.

Islam and Christianity, the "daughter" religions of Judaism, have hundreds and thousands of years of war and suppression to their names. The original, Judaism, is peaceful and never made a religious war on those who believe differently.

You have, of course, the Crusades as the prime example.

One may recall that those Arabs who lived in the small part of what was once Palestine -- and has become Israel -- and stayed put, are now full citizens in the most advanced and democratic country in the Middle East.

Those Arabs who remained in what was to have been a Palestinian Arab state continue to be exploited by their fellow Arabs. Who never permitted such a sate to come into being.

Once the world realizes that, and concedes that Israel IS REAL, then we can get somewhere.

Meanwhile, please note that the reason for the conflict between Israel and the Arabs is that the Arabs, plain and simple, refuse to accept a Jewish state in their midst. They invented this whole idea of a "Palestinian people who deserve a state" just to use as a tool to dismember Israel.

Arab violence against Jews has been going on long before there was an occupation, long before there was a refugee problem--indeed, long before there was a political Zionist movement. Need I present more painful examples? Perhaps even further back, where I hope everyone will agree that the Zionist movement did not yet come into being:

In the centuries after Muhammad there have been periods when the Jews were able to live in relative peace under Arabs, but their position was never secure. They were generally viewed with contempt by their Arab neighbors, and their survival was always predicated on their abject subordination and degradation to them. Mass murders of Jewish "protected people" started in Morocco as early as the eighth century, where Idris I wiped out whole communities. A century later Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews (setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany), and synagogues were destroyed throughout Mesopotamia in 854-859. In Tripolitania, Jews were considered the property of their Arab masters, who would bequeath the Jews to their heirs upon death. In the 12th century, after anti-Jewish riots, the contemporaries commented that their population had 'greatly declined.' ( Middle East Digest, September 1999)

As to how to solve the problem, the only way would be for Israel to defeat the Arabs overwhelmingly, and then dictate the terms for peace. Otherwise, the Arabs will never stop trying to destroy Israel.


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Answer 3

Strict Jewish law says that intermarriage is absolutely forbidden. No ifs, ands, or buts. And a gentile who tries to convert in order to marry won't be accepted- a person is only allowed to convert for love of Judaism, not love of a boyfriend. And since Judaism is passed down through the mother, if a gentile woman marries a Jewish man, the kids won't be Jewish. Reform Jews tend to be a bit lax when it comes to Jewish law, and intermarriage is no exception. Conservative Jews, too, tend to marry out a lot. Reform rabbis say that anyone with one Jewish parent is Jewish, and they have very relaxed standards for conversion. A lot of spouses undergo a nominal conversion, and are considered Jews by Reform Jews, but gentiles by everyone else.

Answer 4

It'a a matter of education and learning to think for oneself and not beleive all the propoganda dished out by the media. For instance take Jerusalem capital of Israel. The Muslims have no idea that there was a Jerusalem before there was a New York. When Berlin, , London, and Paris were forests and swamps, there was a thriving Jewish community here. It gave something to the world which you nations have rejected ever since you established yourselves- a humane moral code. Now until they can absorb a lttle historical fact like this one they will never ever understand.

Answer 5

I am a Jewish American. I practice my religion and am proud of it. I have seen many examples of anti-Jewish actions here in the United States. From the burning of synagogues, the painting of swastikas on homes, the singling out of Jewish children in public schools, and a total misunderstanding of what Judaism means.

I can agree with you on some issues and disagree with you on others. I fully understan what it means to be Jewish, I have been one for 60 years. I have loved my religion, my faith, and my people.

This is totally my opinion, right or wrong. How I feel about Israel is a totally different matter. Israel makes its own bad press. Until this war in south Lebanon, people thought that the IAF was the best in the world. Now you can't beat a rag tag bunch of missile launching morons. Israel always has bad press when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians seem to have better Public Relations Offices than Israel does.

One of the biggest problems in the Middle East is the fact that most of the countries are Theocracies. Either you are Muslim or you are wrong. Israel presents herself as a Theocracy also. It is of course the Jewish Homeland. Why can't you take down your version of the Berlin Wall. Why not grant the people of Gaza and the West Bank full citizenship of Israel. This means giving them the right to vote, sit in the Knesset, have their own political parties and pay taxes? By doing this it would lead to a better understanding about Israel in the world of intolerance.

The person who asked "You do not speak for the entire Jewish religion or community. I did not mean to offend you, but if you will look at all the close minded, defensive responses you have given to so many people here in this forum you will see a pattern here of your own rigidity, which you are entitled to, But my question for you is this: Why raise the question if you refuse to hear any answers that do not coincide with your own?" is one hundred per cent right. This is supposed to be an open forem. You asked a question, then if you don't like the answer you slap them down. You are helping to keep the Jewish sterotype alive. Try to remember, while I have never been to Israel and never plan on going, I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are to yours. This goes for the non-Jew as well. There opinion needs opening up and to do that the first move is tolerance on the Israeli side.

I want Israel to be free of attacks on all sides. I want Israel to be a leader in the Middle East and in fact a roll model for the world. But I cannot right now with all honesty say Israel right or wrong.

Answer 6

I think that some can and do make an effort to understand Judaism and our love for Israel. There are good people like Mimi that have taken time and made efforts to promote peace and understanding, She has also learned a great deal about Judaism and clearly cares about Israel. I believe there must be others like her that are educated and seekers with good hearts. Unfortunately, the majority of non Jews don't understand a thing about Judaism and Israel because they are too quick to listen to baseless propaganda.

Answer 7

I agree with what you are saying, about people not really understanding the true facts, like for instance, the Arabs have been giving the Jews a hard time for centuries and they also have a despicable WW2 record in relation to the Jews. Also, if people would take a little time to brush up on the history of that part of the world, they will probably have a great amount of sympathy for the Jews as well as for the Arabs. Like the fact, for instance, that a fair amount of the land, that was originally declared the state of Israel, in 1948, was legally purchased off Arab Landowners.

Answer 8

i think its very difficult for any one to understand how it feels to be in someone else's shoes. Empathy is something that requires experience, preferably of the situation that the other person feels they are in. i guess one thing all of us, Christians ( that's me by the way) Jews and Muslims can feel is fear and the anxiety. we are all afraid that the other wants what we have. Jews are afraid that their land and life will be taken form them, so they fight hard to defend it. Muslims are afraid that their life style and lands are threatened by the west. and the west is afraid that Muslims want to take over their lifestyles, land and freedom.
we are all afraid that the other wants to take our freedom and impose their values on us.
if we could all lose that fear and accept each other maybe we could feel more secure and happier.if some leaders could stop pushing for power and taking more. it would help.
so maybe the question should be can we all try and understand what it means to be each other
ohhh god i am pontificating again.

Answer 9

Because your average Jewish civilian is not vocal about their faith, and there are not that many of you.

Many non-Jews have no issue with Judaism but disagree with Israeli policies.

I frequently travel to Israel and am trying to learn Hebrew, and I love both the faith and the country even though I am not Israeli or Jewish.

Answer 10

I do not believe that it is impossible for "non-jews" to understand. Communication is the key. If more Jewish people would reach out and open up to those of us who would like to understand, then things would be better. Other Y/A members have said pretty much the same thing here.

I would like to add that, from experience and observation, I have learned that oppression is oppression, and that this sense of being "terminally unique" does not help your cause. It helps to find common ground.

Lumping people into this separatist category of "non-jews" also does not serve your purpose. We are not all alike, just as not all Jewish people are alike. I have many friends who are Jewish, and time and again I have discovered, to repeat, that communication is the key. It is one step toward mutual understanding and compassion, which becomes nec. on both ends esp. if there is disagreement about the situation in Israel. It is important for any cross-cultural exchange not to make agreement a prerequisite for dialogue.

Open up. Maybe the people who are going around dispensing unsolicited advice (which I hate too) wouldn't butt in quite so much if more Jewish people would open up or try not be so insular or mysterious. Given the tragic history of the Jewish people (plural), I can understand this tendency toward isolation, as a way of resisting oppression or further harm, but maybe a new day is dawning.

Peace to you.

EDIT: I have not "proved" your point. Your own refusal to consider other points of view is the problem here. No one is blaming you here. It is not about blame. It is about learning to grapple with alternative ways of seeing the issue, which clearly you are not ready to do yet. It is about learning to enter into dialogue with other people while letting go of this idea of yourself as the victim, when you have been engaged in insulting many people here in this forum. When I say you, I mean you yourself; you do not speak for the entire Jewish religion or community. I did not mean to offend you, but if you will look at all the close minded, defensive responses you have given to so many people here in this forum you will see a pattern here of your own rigidity, which you are entitled to, But my question for you is this: Why raise the question if you refuse to hear any answers that do not coincide with your own? You have a long way to go toward finding real answers if you keep tossing aside or blocking possibilities--if you choose to see only what you want to see. I wish you well.