Purgatory?

Question

In a question about purgatory I read a catholic response that the rich man in Luke 16:22-31 was in purgatory and not Hell. My question is why do you think God would torment His children? Would you torment your children? These are Christians we are referring to here. People who have accepted Jesus as savior and God is basically torturing them? This makes no sense to me. We serve God and ask Him for bread and He gives us a stone? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Can someone please explain?

tur b - I am saying all my sins are covered and cleansed by the blood of Christ. It is sufficient. God does not need to torment His children in order to cleanse us.

tur b - No. I am saying when I repent God wipes away my sins. I am not saying once saved always saved. I pray daily and daily I ask God to forgive me of my sins. When I repent my sins are wiped away and forgotten. If God forgets them how can He punish me for them in purgatory?

Answer 1

Catechism of the Catholic Church is only three paragraphs long (CCC 1030-1032). In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living. Among the things the Church does not insist on are the ideas that purgatory is a place or that it takes time.

The idea that purgatory is a late invention is similarly false. In fact, it has been part of the religion since before the time of Christ. It is witnessed to not only in such as 2 Maccabees, which itself witnesses to the belief (see below), but in other pre-Christian Jewish books as well, such as The Life of Adam and Eve, which speaks of Adam being freed from purgatory on the Last Day.

Not only Catholics believe in this final purification, but the Eastern Orthodox do as well (though they often do not use the term "purgatory" for it), as do Orthodox Jews. In fact, to this day, when a Jewish person's loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one's purification.

Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today.

While 2 Maccabees 12 certainly teaches the doctrine of purgatory, the doctrine is in no way "based on" that passage. The doctrine can also be supported from numerous passages in the New Testament, but more fundamentally can be derived from the principles of Protestant theology alone.

You see, Protestant are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm (if you press them) about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification -- a purification -- of our natures.

This purification may take no time, but this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition -- the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, "the final sanctification" or "the last rush of sanctification."

The Church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region in the afterlife. Just as we do not know how time works in the afterlife -- meaning that purgatory may take no time -- we also do not know how space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls -- meaning purgatory may not take place in any special location.

The final purification may take place in the immediate presence of God (to the extent that God's presence may be described in spatial terms).

"There is no pain in the afterlife."

Now this argument is quite false. It is not true that there is no pain in the afterlife, even for the saved. We are told that one day, in the eternal order, "he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4) -- but note when this happens: in the eternal order, after the descent of the New Jerusalem and the passing away of the current heaven and earth.

Before that time, Scripture gives us no promise that we will be free of all pain. In fact, it indicates quite the opposite. Paul tells us:



"[W]hether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:9-11).

Paul states that out of the fear of the Lord he tries to please God because we will all stand before God to be judged by whether what we have done is good or evil. Thus the prospect of appearing before Christ's judgment seat is a fearful thing, even for the Christian.

This is something recognized even by Protestants. For example, in his Through The Bible series (on Romans 14 in this case), Protestant preacher J. Vernon McGee commented that he was not looking forward to the judgment seat of Christ, because at his judgment seat Jesus Christ was going to take J. Vernon McGee apart, which is certainly something that Christ endorses, saying to his disciples (Christians):



"Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!" (Luke 12:2-5)

So according to both Jesus and Paul we have reason to fear the unstoppable, unavoidable, unrelenting, and microscopic examination to which our lives will be subjected when we stand before Jesus. We must not have an unreasonable, unhealthy fear of this, the kind which leads to despair, but we must have the healthy, Godly fear which Paul and Jesus counsel.

The painful loss which even the righteous will experience in the afterlife is brought forward with especial clarity in 1 Corinthians, where Paul tells us:



"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

This clearly applies to the saved, for Paul says so ("he himself will be saved"), but it does not indicates that this life-review will be fun, for Paul also says, the person in question's work "is burned up" and "he will suffer loss" and though he will be saved, it will be "only as through fire." Needless to say, seeing ones life's work go up in flames, suffering loss when one was expecting to "receive a reward" and escaping through the flames is not fun.

Thus the day on which we receive our particular judgment at the end of life will not be fun to the extent our works are not good. This clearly shows the reality of pain and discomfort after death but before the inauguration of the eternal order.

Now some Protestants try a dodge to get around this passage by saying that it is our works which are tested. It is true that on the surface of this passage. Paul does say our works will be tested by fire. However, this changes nothing since we will existentially feel it as our works are tested and consumed. That is why Paul says one whose works survive will "receive a reward" -- something he will feel -- and one whose works are consumed will suffer loss -- again, something he will feel.

Thus Paul caps the passage by saying that the saved one who suffers loss will be saved "only as through fire" -- the image being that of a man escaping from a burning building, which is precisely what Paul was talking about -- the local church as a building built by men either with fire-proof materials or materials which will be consumed (read the prior context). Thus the picture is of a man having built up his local church improperly, then seeing his work -- the building he has built -- consumed by fire, so he has to flee from it amid the flames to escape.

Thus while Paul says our works (the building we do) will be tested by fire, he envisions the flames touching us ourselves if our building ignites and we are forced to flee from it. So while under this metaphor in Paul our works are tested, we ourselves feel the consequences of this testing in the most painful way possible, for it is no fun to have to escape from a burning building as the work of your life comes crashing down around you.

ok, ok, Edge, I'll quit! :)

Answer 2

Hi, Edge. No, God is not torturing his children in purgatory. He is purifying or "purging" them.

First, God is just as well as merciful. If we have broken his commandments (say, by successful embezzlement), we can be forgiven, but we still deserve punishment. Accepting just punishment is a sign of genuine repentance.

Second, we know God is holy, and only those perfected in holiness can be admitted into heaven. Most Christians will need substantial help after death to perfect holiness, even when our sins are forgiven. We are leaving a long history of sinful habits.

I differ with my Catholic friend on Luke 16:22-31. Note verse 26: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." The important thing to know about purgatory is that there is no impossible chasm between purgatory and heaven, and that all souls in purgatory eventually do cross over into heaven.

Cheers,
Bruce

Answer 3

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

Answer 4

HADES In Greek religion the god of the underworld; consequently the kingdom ruled over by Hades, or the abode of the dead. In the Bible the Greek translation of the Hebrew sheol, also meaning the abode of the dead, or death, or the power of destruction, or the place of the wicked after death. (Etym. Greek Haid_s, the nether world.) PURGATORY The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness. Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth. Nor are the pains incompatible with great peace and joy, since the poor souls deeply love God and are sure they will reach heaven. As members of the Church Suffering, the souls in purgatory can intercede for the persons on earth, who are therefore encouraged to invoke their aid. Purgatory will not continue after the general judgment, but its duration for any particular souls continues until it is free from all guilt and punishment. Immediately on purification the soul is assumed into heaven. (Etym. Latin purgatio, cleansing, purifying.)

Answer 5

Are you confusing purgatory with Hell? If so, don't. They are not the same.

Purgatory is a purification process. The word purgatory actually comes from the word purification - to purify, purge. Those of us who die in God's friendship but are still stained with sin must be purified since nothing sinful can enter heaven.

Hell is total and final damnation. It is permanent. Those condemned there are beyond all mercy and prayer. They rejected God and were not repentent. They damnation was of their own choosing. This is why Jesus warned us so fiercely about repentance. He is trying to give us life and save us from death.

Answer 6

Others have already answered about the interpretation of Luke 16:22-31 so I will only comment on something else you stated.

The blood of Christ does not cover your sins but cleanses you of your sins. One with covered sins has no possibility of entering heaven where no sin will exist with God.

Those who are cleansed through purgatory have already been judged worthy of heaven.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Answer 7

what doesn't make sense more is that one goes to hell for simply not being perfect.
Jesus said you should be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. God can't stand sin, and since nobody is perfect and sinless, no person can enter heaven.
so are you saying that God would rather lose ALL people for being imprefect and for not being sinless?

so, are you saying you're sinless and spotless no matter what you do and what you think just because Jesus died for your sins? what about the concequences of your actions? God is Just as well as loving and merciful, but people often forget the truth that God is the author of Justice too.

Answer 8

It's best to look at purgatory not as a place of torment, but rather as a spiritual state that God created in His mercy -- in order to prepare us to enter Heaven, where Revelations says nothing unclean is allowed.

Without purgatory, most of us wouldn't have a chance in hell of getting into heaven (excuse the pun). Most of us are in dire need of the spiritual purification that goes on in purgatory -- if it weren't for that, we'd be in big-time spiritual trouble.

..

Answer 9

As we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God's presence and holiness.

So according to both Jesus and Paul we have reason to fear the unstoppable, unavoidable, unrelenting, and microscopic examination to which our lives will be subjected when we stand before Jesus. We must not have an unreasonable, unhealthy fear of this, the kind which leads to despair, but we must have the healthy, Godly fear which Paul and Jesus counsel.

Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification. Now sanctification can be painful or non-painful (usually the former), including the its final stage. So just as we may pray for others in this life to be made holy more quickly or in a non-painful way, so we may pray for those in the final stage of sanctification to be made holy more quickly or in a non-painful way.

The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God. It doesn't matter where you start from, there will be no sinning in heaven, and you have to be brought up to that level during final sanctification, before you are glorified with God in heaven.

Purgatory is not a middle state between heaven and hell. Everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven.
The reason one goes to purgatory is so that one can be fitted for life in heaven. Purgatory thus constitutes the cloakroom of heaven, the place you go to get spiffed up before being ushered into the Throne Room.



Catechism of the Catholic Church :

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7]



"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[2 Macc 12:46] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:



"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them."[St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5]

Answer 10

Death and the HEaling is totally right. Historically during medieval times (im not sure of the date) the Catholic Church was very corrupt so they made up purgatory to make more money. The belief was that you can pay your way to heaven so you would get stuck in purgatory if you didn't pay your due$$ to the church. To protests this Martin Luther posted a chart on Notre Dame ( i think) because he was ashamed on the corruption of the church. He started a new religion based on Catholicism but without the corruption. Also Calvinism came from this incident too which was a much stricter religion. Look it up its history.

Answer 11

Purgatory is not the Biblical concept.