Is Jesus teaching about purgatory in Luke 12:57-59? If not, what is he teaching?

Question

Luke 12:57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Here's the parallel passage in Matt 5:25-26: "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Jesus couldn't be teaching about hell, because you can "get out" after "you have paid the last penny."

Those who think Jesus is just give practical advice about staying out of jail might want to consider the preceding verses in Luke:

12:54 He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

Is Jesus giving practical advice on weather forecasting?

Hoosier Daddy, the Orthodox affirm a purification after death, while differing in some details from the Catholic formulation.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

δοῦλον δὲ κυρίου, your comments demonstrate scholarship. But good exegesis depends on understanding how views on purgatory were received in the early Church, especially by the Fathers of the Church.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

Answer 1

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

Answer 2

Purgatory is simply the place where already saved souls are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin before they are allowed to see the holy face of Almighty God. Revelation 21:27 tells us that "...nothing unclean will enter [Heaven]."

Archaeology also indicates the antiquity of the Christian belief in Purgatory/the Final Theosis: the tombs of the ancient Christians were inscribed with words of petition for peace and for rest, and at the anniversaries of deaths, the faithful gathered at the graves of the departed to make intercession for those who'd gone before.

Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always proclaimed the reality of the final purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.

Answer 3

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Answer 4

kupio said:
No, purgatory is a non-biblical teaching that arose from Catholic tradition and nothing more. Jesus was teaching about exactly what he says he is teaching about, owing money.

... The concept of purgatory is a very late development in church history.

I reply:
Oh really? Then why is there instances in recorded Jewish history of praying for the dead and the expiation of their sins?

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

and

2 Macc. 12:43-45
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.


- the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Kinda destroys your idea of Purgatory being a 'late development' doesn't it?


EDIT:
Your response to my reply:

Robin, I suppose if you wish to build your life beliefs on a few vague references in apocryphal, (non-canonical) writings than go ahead...

I reply:
Your argument to reject Purgatory was because it was a non-Biblical teaching that arose from Catholic tradition. I conclusively proved that this teaching was in existence BEFORE the Catholic Church (whether it was biblical or not is irrevelant in this particular line of argumentation). If you are then an honest seeker of the truth, you should therefore reconsider the possibility that the idea of Purgatory is indeed a very ancient belief.

God Bless
Robin

Answer 5

Both verses are also echoed in 1 Peter 3:19; Jesus preached to the spirits "in prison" who had "disobeyed long ago".

Likewise, the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 is suffering but in compassion wants to warn others. He is obviously not in heaven, where no one suffers; nor could he be in hell. Compassion is a grace from God, and those in hell are cut off from God's grace. So there is really only one other place he could have been.

Answer 6

I think you are correct - I think Jesus is teaching about purgatory there...

And at the time he said those words and people pondered them, and the time those words were recorded and translated to we can read them today -- and as it is now -- this was something Jesus realized (God knew) needed to be said "delicately" -- well I'm not good at "delicate" and on that score I thank God :) for being good at "delicate" --
Here is my indellicate experience relative to your verse and the concept of Purgatory

My maternal grandparents passed about 11/12 years apart from one another. My m-grandfather was quite the character study - at the time of his passing, I was completely at peace in my relationship with him but that was not the case for many others of his family. His wife (my Nana, m-g-mother) lived for 10 or 11 years after him, and spoke with me a few times about reactions of the children/grandchildren to the passing of her husband. I think on some level, she was trying to mitigate what she knew of her husband and what her descendants remembered of him. . . I think in a way that is purgatory. I think my m-g-father was redeemed and sanctified and right in every way with God, but the pain and suffering brought about in this life by misunderstandings between him and his loved ones created that in-between place where a person is redeemed in the eyes of God, but still has some "debt" to pay. This debt to the hearts and souls of family and others we are connected to is the debt that is to be paid spoken of metaphorically in your scripture...

And then this concept got examined and categorized and logged into the catechismal anals where it could become a bunch of dried old words to be mis-understood by (protestants) what - not .... and the concept was called "purgatory". It all reminds me of Babel over and over and over again. :)

-M

Addnl-
δοῦλον δὲ κυρίου - I appreciate your added remarks on this subject, you are expressing well the same thing I tried to here and failed. . .although you don't agree that this passage is about purgatory, you present all the reasons why purgatory (yes, a dogma/doctrine) isn't about our relationship with God, as you say, that debt is already finished at the cross. Purgatory is about our relationships with each other especially when we've passed on and our impact is still felt in this world. . . and that is just how I've come to understand it.

Answer 7

No, purgatory is a non-biblical teaching that arose from Catholic tradition and nothing more. Jesus was teaching about exactly what he says he is teaching about, owing money.

The first rule of scriptural exegesis is that a passage could not mean what it could have never meant to the writer or reader. The concept of purgatory is a very late development in church history.

Let's have a quick look at what Jesus did teach about the after life shall we? In the story of the Rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16 (not a parable as proper names are given) we read the following about the after death experience:
16:25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things and Lazarus likewise bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish. 16:26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’(NET)

So it seems that the decisions you make in this life are final. Choose wisely.


edit-- The proof texts you seek to use to support the belief of purgatory are very thin evidence indeed.

It is a second cardinal rule (no pun intended) to never develop major doctrinal tenets based on a very few poorly understood passages.

The Luke passage is clearly being contorted severely to support purgatory. It is quite unwise to put words in the Lord's mouth. Reading one's opinion into scripture is called eisigesis and it is nearly always the source of theological error.

Robin, I suppose if you wish to build your life beliefs on a few vague references in apocryphal, (non-canonical) writings than go ahead. What's more you gave the justification for what the teaching of purgatory was really used for, the selling of indulgences. It was a money maker. When you look at St. Peter's you can thank the teaching of purgatory (and good credit with the Fuggers)...

--Edit My Catholic brothers and sisters (yes I count you as such) I will only say one thing further as all of the proof texts you list are either a) extra-biblical or b) badly out of context and as it is acceptable within your belief system to accept dogma as truth, just admit that purgatory is such a teaching.

The reason I am so concerned is that by insisting in such a debatable issue as this, you violate a third precept of scriptural interpretation and that is, when you compromise a foundational truth to support a disputed opinion, you are nearly always in error.

The great truth you are wrecking is the atonement. When Jesus proclaimed, "Τετέλεσται" commonly translated "it is finished" (John 19:30) from the cross, he was using a financial term that means that the debt is paid in full. This Greek verb is a passive, perfect which means that the impurities of sin are paid for by his blood continually.

Believing in a need for more makes the sacrifice of Christ of no effect. I choose to keep the atoning work of Christ and forget having to do something further to be purified.

Answer 8

I would think purgatory since he is often talking about spiritual matters and doing so in analogies or parables. Similar to the parable of the goats and the sheep, I don't think he was referring to agriculture. So yes, I believe from what it says there, it refers to purgatory.

Answer 9

Yes! I bet my eternal life, he does!

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

Answer 10

Purgatory was created in 14th century Spain about the same time that private wealth came into existance. The Bible teaches that a rich man will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So, purgatory was created as a means for the rich man's estate to be sold off after death, so he would no longer be rich.