Let's rehash Mary being sinless?

Question

I know this question was just asked and I saw the typical Catholic answers. Not saying anything is wrong with the answer just that the answers were what I expected. One of the common themes is that Mary was saved in the womb. Lets assume this is true. That from the womb she was saved. Have you sinned since you got saved? I know I have. So if we sin after we got saved what would keep Mary from it? If God made it so Mary could not sin then didn't He interfere with her free will? We are told all have sinned. Not some but all. It seems to me that this teaching is a direct contradiction of the Bible.

I am being as respectful as I can here so please be respectful in your answers.

If Mary could choose on her own to never sin then can't we do the same? If we can do the same why did we need a savior?

I love deke - nothing actually. I just don't like false doctrines. Not to offend Catholics I just believe it is false.

Gotta run. Will check back later.

I got the answers I expected. I am sorry Catholics but I think you are wrong. If you check back think about this. If God made it so Mary was sinless and so she would never sin. Why not just change us all that way and save the sacrifice of Jesus? Yes God is not subject to linear time however He does limit Himself to certain rules. One is free will. If Mary were created to the point that she could not sin. If it were impossible for her to sin then she had no free will. I also disagree about the woman in Revelation being Mary but that is for another day.

Yes I believe God could have made Mary sinless. No I don't think He did. I believe He chose a human for His mother. An ordinary human and one who was a sinner and needed a savior.

I got the answers I expected. I am sorry Catholics but I think you are wrong. If you check back think about this. If God made it so Mary was sinless and so she would never sin. Why not just change us all that way and save the sacrifice of Jesus? Yes God is not subject to linear time however He does limit Himself to certain rules. One is free will. If Mary were created to the point that she could not sin. If it were impossible for her to sin then she had no free will. I also disagree about the woman in Revelation being Mary but that is for another day.

Yes I believe God could have made Mary sinless. No I don't think He did. I believe He chose a human for His mother. An ordinary human and one who was a sinner and needed a savior.

I also disagree with Mary being the greatest of the saints. All Christians are equal in the eyes of God.

Quailman - we are told all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Seeing as Jesus is God He could not fall short of His glory.

Born-Again Catholic - I have respect for you so I will not choose you as best answer even though I am tempted. It is not that giving Mary honor is too Catholic for me per se. I just really think Mary was a Christian just like me. Someone who sinned and needed a savior. I know Catholics believe that she can go to Jesus for us. Assuming this is true. Wouldn't it make her better at this if she was just an ordinary saved Christian like us? One who had struggled with sin. One who needed a savior? I do not seek to denigrate her. I just think that Catholics elevate her higher than deserved.

Answer 1

Well, let's assume that Mary was conceived with out sin. (That is saved by Jesus ahead of the rest of us)

When the angel appeared to her, she was "full of grace." So, we have a logical argument that she was sinless to that point.

The next few references show her visit Elizabeth and prophesying "All generations shall call me blessed (ie holy)."

Next there is the Nativity, the Presentation at the Temple, the Flight into Egypt, the Visit to the Temple, the Wedding at Cana, one or two other references and we find Mary at the Crucifixion. The final reference for Mary is in Rev. where she is wearing a crown of stars. Nothing sinful here.

So, if all of the Bible is true, then we have to assume that Mary is to be called "blessed," that she is "full of grace" and that she is in heaven.

Part of the problem that you are having is that Catholics generally don't have the same vocabulary that other Christians use. I have seen it often here and in other places. Catholics and other Christians continue to talk past each other and never actually communicate... But, I digress.

Here is a much better explanation that I can give:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

EDIT: Look, it boils down to this: Either you think God COULDN'T make Mary sinless, or that He DIDN'T make Mary sinless. Since the first is impossible for a Christian because we know God is all-powerful, then you believe that He DIDN'T choose a pure vessel for His Mother.

Catholics believe that God COULD make Mary sinless and that He DID make Mary sinless. Since she did not have "original sin," she was pure (full of grace, blessed), and not fallen and she maintained that state until she was assumed into heaven, body and soul.

Answer 2

Edge, truly -- and respectfully -- what do you not get about this? After months and months of rehashing it here, why do you and others still insist on limiting God to linear time?

Let's try this again.

1. Mary herself acknowledged "God, my Savior". So yes, indeed, as a created human being she also needed a savior just like the rest of us.
2. God chose her to be the mother of the Incarnate Word. When she was told of this, she assented; "let it be done unto me according to your word".
3. God is omnipresent; He exists outside of linear time, and so to Him everything is here-and-now. Therefore, He knew before she was even conceived that Mary would bear Christ.
4. Christ is holy. God and Christ are one. If Mary's salvation had to wait until her Son's crucifixion and resurrection, then the incarnate Word would not be gestating in a clean vessel -- or a holy tabernacle, for that matter.
5. Therefore ... Mary was redeemed from her own conception, in anticipation of what God knew she would do.
6. Further, she was "full of grace". If you or I were in that state, we would experience temptation but never succumb to it. By God's grace alone do we resist sin, even as believers.

How does any of this contradict what we know about God, Christ, and salvation from the pages of Scripture? Does Mary's immaculate conception have to be spelled out in so many words to be true? If so, then we're in real trouble with the doctrine of the Trinity ... and so is the doctrine of sola scriptura, which if using 2 Timothy 3:16 as its basis should rightfully be "all scripture", not "scripture alone", because that's what the verse actually says.

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If you got the answers you expected ... then why keep asking. I am also sorry, but I believe you are wrong. And so we remain at an impasse.

Mary's free will was demonstrated in her assent ...
... however, if one is absolutely determined to believe that there was nothing at all special about this young woman, then one will continue to put God in a box. I have no idea why He didn't just save all of us this way (other than perhaps none of us has ever, or will ever, be on such intimate terms with Christ as was Mary). Neither do you. The point is moot; He did not.

The fact is, Edge, you are afraid of giving Mary any ground because it's just too Catholic for you. I understand that. But that doesn't mean the Church has been wrong about her all these many centuries.

I challenge you, though, to give one of the Catholics "best answer" anyway (not me, please, you've already honored me thus and there are others here who cared enough to answer). That will at least put you a bit higher on the integrity scale (which I believe is the case) than your Catholic-hating brethren who merely seek an "amen" to their own prejudice.

Answer 3

Mary, as are all who are saved, was saved by the blood of Christ. She is the greatest of Saints and her prayers for us are efficacious. She is a fully human creature and not in any way a goddess.


She is the Immaculate Conception who was filled with grace from her first moments, she is the Ark of the New Covenant and the New Eve


Mary is the "Theotokos," or the "God-bearer," i.e., the Mother of God


Mary remained both sinless and a virgin her entire life


Mary was assumed into Heaven by the power of God, where she was crowned Queen of Heaven

Answer 4

The problem for many non-Catholic Christians is the idea that she was born that way and that she was sinless. But Mary had to have been literally filled with Grace because Christ is her Son -- and He is perfect!. She is more that some really cool, spiritual woman who acted as a surrogate mother for the Holy Spirit; she gave to Jesus His humanity in the same way that all mothers give to their children their humanity. He took from her His very Flesh and Blood! It was through her that our Lord "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3).

All Christians believe in saving grace and in sanctification. This being so, what is hard to believe about the idea that God sanctified Mary in her mother's womb, especially given that Mary bore Christ in hers? Can't the Awesome God Who overshadowed Mary so that she would conceive the Son be perfectly capable of preparing her from her own mother's womb to be a pristine vessel for such a glorious task? He created Eve without sin, would He not create His own Mother without sin, also? St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb.



Catholic belief is that all of us, Mary included, need a Redeemer because of our fallen nature and that no one can attain Heaven without His Blood. We are saved from our fallen nature by His grace alone through faith that worketh in charity. Mary, though, because God knew how she would use the free will He gave to her, was saved, by His grace, from having a fallen nature at the moment of her conception. She was redeemed from her mother's womb, an act planned from Genesis 3 so that she could act as the New Eve and so that Christ could be born of vessel even more pure than the Ark of the Covenant. Christ would not have been born from that which is impure! God knew of Mary's will to serve even before she was conceived. He knew she would say yes to Him, and He saved her at her first moment.

Answer 5

Very good answer Born Again Catholic.

Additionally, Mary's free will was never taken from her. Free will isn't our daily ability to choose sin. Free will is our ability to choose God or not. Mary did choose God when she said "do unto me according to your will."

It is really not that difficult to understand if you get out from under your "Bible Only" thinking. Everything does not have to be written in the Bible in order to be truth. But the truth and scripture will never be at odds with each other.

Answer 6

Thanks for your respect!

If you have the power to create your mother, wouldn't you want her to be perfect? Mary was kept from sin because of God's will. It is as simple as that. The will of God is never a contradiction in the Bible. Moses kept on resisting God (giving God all these excuses) when He called him but still he was the one who led Israel out of Egypt. Jonah ran away because he did not want to be His prophet but still he was the one who was sent. Did God interfere with Moses and Jonah's free will? No! The very question "God interfering with her free will" is a complete negation of God. God is so perfect that if He interferes with our free will, it negates His perfection. So He would never do that.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

Answer 7

"We are told all have sinned. Not some but all"
So Jesus sinned?


i think(think, not sure) that the doctrine is Mary was born without original sin.

lost.eu/21618

Answer 8

There is no scripture supporting the idea that Mary is sinless. It is yet another man-made doctrine of the Catholic faith. You know, kinda like baptizing at birth, communion, confessing sin to another man, and so forth.

No doubt Mary was a wonderfully Godly woman, probably more so than most, but sinless. No. Jesus is THE only sinless human. Period.

If we as born again, or saved if you prefer, humans are able to simply not sin anymore, then we take away from the death of Jesus on the cross for our sins.

She was a virgin at the time Jesus was born, but this has nothing to do with being sinless. My daughters are both virgins, but I can say they sin for sure.

God bless.
PS: Robert, Mary in no way stayed a virgin her whole life. She was married, you know, and that in itself would be sin, to not engage in intimacy with her husband. I have an extra Bible if you would like me to send it to you..............

Answer 9

She wasn't sinless, but let's face it, she must have been very righteous and living a holy life, for God to choose her over all others, to bear his son.

You can read more about Mary in "The Real Mary: Why Evangelicals Can Embrace the Mother of Jesus."

I'm not Catholic, but I sincerely appreciate your personal effort to be respectful!

Answer 10

Actually, one one occassion Bible says that Mary and her children thought that Jesus is insane!

Now, if that's not a sin ...