Theist Challenge! What is a property that defines existence? Does God meet that property?

Question

For example when I say I have a hand, properties which include/define me having a hand is.

* It is attached to my arm
* It has veins and blood running through it
* It has fingers... etc... etc... etc...

1 property that I use to define existence is that which is in spacetime. I have many others but am eager to hear your defining properties.

My claim is that no theist can give me a property which is an adequate attribute of existence that applies to Himself and God.
The statement "I exist, and God exist" is not compatible. Because the properties which define existence apply to one "I" but not to the other "God"?

One way of surpassing semantics and getting to the root meanings of "certain" terms is to define the properties of that term. At times simple definitions will not do we have to get to the properties. Once we do this it is clear that the statement "God exists" is meaningless.

Or perhaps I`am mistaken and a theist will prove me wrong?

Jake B - A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Trickery answer is not what I wanted, this is a pretty straightforward question. Perhaps you just cannot grasp the concepts involved. And if 2 points makes you happier than activing your intellectual stimuli then I petty you.

Bedel - If you consider the universe to be a diety then you have already found the answer.

Mr. Knowitall - It is wrong of you to assume that I have an idea of existence. As far as everything being of a physical makeup that defines the property I proposed for existence. Does space or time have a physical make up? Does not space and time existence in all things? Does not time exists in space and vice versa?
Your argument although noteworthy does not hold weight. Because if we are in the "Mind" of God then he is not separate and distinct from what he has created. Just as our thoughts are apart of us - we would be apart of him. Just as we are depended upon our thoughts for conciousness he would be depended upon us. And no I don`t find that argument to be profound or intriguing on the contrary I find it to be rather dull, as it refutes itself.
Thank u for the post, your not a theist anyway so my criticism should u take no offense.

Cognito - Your argument is not only fallacious it`s just plain stupid. First of all I only have given you one property that I suggest is the same for all existing things. Please, by all means explain what it means to exist. Define it`s properties. I shall put no words in your mouth. My claim is that you cannot say I exist and God exist and claim that the word Exist means the same thing. If you can reconcile the two I`m all ears. Your supposed rebuttal is amusing. My argument is not fallacious because I have not presented one. The challenge was for theists, if you cannot grasps the concepts involved in this quesition then perhaps Cognito Ergo is not an appropiate moniker for your avatar.

PrettyMo - Thank you very much. You are not the only person to actually answer the question. Not only that but it was a damn good answer. The interesting concept you presented is more than interesting rather it be the truth. However, please not that the oneness of everything that is which you referred to as mind, or larger mind, or greater mind - is apart of what is called "The All"

Now, by your own reasoning which was beautifully stated and true by the way - denies the existence of a creator that is "Separate and distinct" from what he has created! Make no worry of it. If you are willing to accept "The All" and call it God then your are on the quest for enlightment. Not only is "The All" God. It is far more profound and unique than any religious dogma has ever portrayed God to be.

Pretty Mo - You stumbblith upon a great treasure of the Universe, yet know not that you have found it nor what it is.
Look again! This philosophical outlook on life is called pantheism. Godspeed, I hope you don`t shun your eyes to the sacred truth.

Answer 1

a field. or a mind.

research field theory. basically everything... from the smallest particle has a mind. for example:

* a carbon atom exists. it has a mind.
* it combines with other atoms to create a heart. all of those atoms together have a mind of their own. the heart mind.
* atoms combing together to make a liver. each of those atoms have a mind of their own. combined together, they have a liver mind.
* and so on... each organ in the body including bones and skin, has it's own mind.
* when all of these minds combine together to create the human body, they have one mind - the body mind.
*my boyfriend, our friend, 2 dogs, the tv, the couch, the coffee table, the speakers, the dvd player, cable box, lamp, end table, throw carpet, and blanket are in the living room together. this living room has a mind.
* each room in this house has a mind. all together, the house has a mind.
* each house on this block has a mind. combined together, the whole block has one mind.
* combine all the blocks together in this neighborhood, the neighborhood has a mind....
* fast forward... eventually everything in the universe combines together into one mind - which could ultimately be god (or the high power), thus proving his existence.

totally interesting concept... thus a point of existence. if every atom has a mind... then inanimate and animate objects have a mind... (and we agree that they exist) thus if this god has a mind... he/she exists as well.

Answer 2

Easily.

The definition of 'Existence' is God. All that we see, both permanent and temporary, is God. Everything that forms the manifest and unmanifest worlds constitute the Transcendental Body of the Supreme Lord.

God or Brahman, who is Sriman Narayana in Hindu Philosophy, is Energy. He is omnipotent, so He can be both Personal and Impersonal. Since we can never conceive of His majesty, He appears as a Personal Lord for us to Love.

His Material Energy comprises of the Manifest Multiple Parallel Universes (Our Scriptures assert that there are billions of these) and His Spiritual Energy is the Unmanifest.

Now, everything that is Existence, is the Body of the Supreme Lord. Everything is in Him. Which means, we are distinct, yet within Him. Both Nothingness and Non-Nothingness are in Him. He is the all pervading force, present in every atom.

When we say 'I', it pertains to the Self. The Self is an atomic fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord. Hence, it is a part of His energy as well. Everything is defined by Him.

Furthermore, to say that Existence was 'created' is wrong. If God was to create, it would mean He needs some 'building blocks' to do so. However, In Hindu Philosophy, Lord Vishnu simply transforms His material energy into multiple parallel universes. This is maintained for many trillions of years until He dissolves it all, and transforms it into another set of Universes altogether. This is an endless cycle.

This is in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Energy. 'Energy is neither created nor destroyed, but can be transformed.' Hindu Philosophy adds to this law, stating that Energy is eternal and is Lord Vishnu.

So, having now known what Existence is, here are its properties:

1) It is Eternal.
2) It Sustains everything.
3) Everything is Existence, hence defining Existence would be a bit too much to achieve.

The Lord is present everywhere. In you, In me, In all inanimate and animate objects. He is the Beginning, the Middle and the End. He is Existence and the Cause of all Causes.

Answer 3

God cannot be defined and proven scientifically that he exists.You either believe or you don't. There is no other way.Of course this answer is not enough for a non believer.But at least it is honest and doesn't rely on the Bible as "evidence"Even if you are a staunch non-believer if you could at least admit, that there might be the possibility, no matter how remote, of a Creator you have taken the first step to believing,but ,if you continue, you have a long way to go .
Apparitions of Jesus and Mary have happened recently,however 99.9 percent of Christians refuse to believe in the possibility of them.(a closed mind ?)And ,for some reason, all Christians give different answers as to who God is ! The Apparations have been well recorded,documented,authenticated,and thoroughly investigated to dismiss as fantasy or misguided spiritual fervour,and the works that flowed from them were good.

Answer 4

Yeah, but you don't know your hand is actually there. You said, it has fingers, veins and blood, and it's attached to your arm, but those are "properties" that are not empirical. They are properties that you have observed from your relative perspective. Maybe you're in the Matrix and it's just electrical impulses telling your brain that your hand is actually there when it might actually not be there. Those "properties" don't mean that your hand is actually there. I think you're looking for apples in the orange cart.

BTW - no one is going to convince you purely by argument whether or not God exists. You know that and so do I. The question is, "Does belief in God actually have the potential to yield a better life than non-belief in God?" God-believers need to ask themselves this question (and answer it positively) if they want to have a platform anywhere.

Answer 5

I'm not at theist but I have what might be a good argument.

Your idea of 'existence' is fine for material things in the universe--galaxies, stars, on down to your hand, fingers, etc. Those things exist in the physical world so they have properties. Their existence is observable! They have mass, they have weight, they take up space, etc. etc.

But God's existence is on a different plane--in fact the word 'existence' might not be the operable term for it. God -created- the physical world. In fact John Wesley (early leader of the Methodist movement) once speculated that the entire physical universe exists only in the mind of God, and if his attention was distracted, just for a second, the universe as we know it might vanish as the fabric of a dream! Now, believe that not (and I don't) you have to admit that's a very profound and engaging thought, no?

In that logic, God exists to us the way we exist to a unicorn or a leprechaun. I think it's more like God exists to us as we exist to an amoeba. We can watch it through a microscope, we can learn a lot about it, but the amoeba has no way of seeing us or even understanding the world in which we live. What the amoeba knows about us, what they teach in amoeba churches, is mostly pure speculation!

And as believers and non-believers ought to agree, this argument, like all other explanations of God's invisibility, all other 'proofs' of God's existence, is completely opaque and unsatisfying to those who don't already believe God exists. No matter how much one believes in God, one has to admit that there is no way to prove God's existence through the usual rules of evidence and rational logic. It's obvious to me that if God does exist, he doesn't want us to see him that easily, or know that much about him.

I just had to add something here to answer Jake. Descartes has your question covered pretty well. Descartes realized that anything we learned through our senses could be wrong. Any idea we arrived at through logic could be wrong. But even if we -were- wrong, the fact that we -had- ideas proved at the very least that we exist! The principle is stated usually as 'cogito ergo sum'--I think, therefore I am. But what Descartes actually said was 'Je pense donc je suis'. For some reason it just sounds better in Latin than in French. 8^)

Answer 6

your logic is fallacious

You are arbitrarily defining existence by arbitrarily adding components of criteria... without any affirmed proof that these criteria to existence are necessary.

Secondly, when you say "exist" you are speaking of Gods creation... your are speaking of all things scientifically measurable... that exist within this universe. Does anything "exist" that exists outside the universe? Does anything exist that is not observable or measurable? Can he who created existence itself be considered to exist himself?

===

Im so sorry that I debunked your point so quickly. Either you feel my position was too strong or you simply didnt grasp my point. Let me know.

Answer 7

In that case can you prove YOU exist?
What is existence?
It's all about point of view.
You (the questioner) only exist to me through the text you sent to the Yahoo website.
I still know you're there.
I know that didn't use the syntax trickery you wanted, but it's an answer and I just got 2 points! Woo hoo!

Answer 8

Theists don't think like that. Instead of "I exist, and God exists", they say "I exist, because God exists".

I consider the universe a deity, so I sure as hell hope you find an answer to your question.

Answer 9

I think you missed my point when you last posted this question - what I was getting at is...perhaps your criteria to define existence is a bit limited - not all "things" that exist are limited to physical make up......

Answer 10

"If thou art sailing upon the sea of God's Names, which are reflected in all things, know thou that He is exalted and sanctified from being known through His creatures, or being described by His servants. Everything thou beholdest hath been called into being through the operation of His Will. How can such a created thing, therefore, be indicative of His essential oneness? God's existence in itself testifieth to His Own oneness, while every created thing, by its very nature, beareth evidence that it hath been fashioned by God. Such is the proof of consummate wisdom in the estimation of those who sail the ocean of divine Truth.

If, however, thou art sailing upon the sea of creation, know thou that the First Remembrance, which is the Primal Will of God, may be likened unto the sun. God hath created Him through the potency of His might, and He hath, from the beginning that hath no beginning, caused Him to be manifested in every Dispensation through the compelling power of His behest, and God will, to the end that knoweth no end, continue to manifest Him according to the good-pleasure of His invincible Purpose.

And know thou that He indeed resembleth the sun. Were the risings of the sun to continue till the end that hath no end, yet there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun; and were its settings to endure for evermore, still there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun. It is this Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and speaketh forth in every revealed Book. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as the First deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last oweth its lastness unto It.

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the 'Point of the Bayan'; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest [Baha'u'llah]. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, 'I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun."

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 125)

God bless.