To all respectable and unbiased theologians and scholars......?

Question

In the course of disputing or defending the Doctrine of the Trinity, isn't it important for all concerned to agree that the Comma Johanneum was only found in manuscripts printed after the doctrine was postulated?

The Comma in question being:

1 John
5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Thank you King$mity, you're dismissed.

Father K, then I would respectably have to ask, where outside of scripture does the notion come from?

Spencer, read the details the KJV has been altered and is therefore unreliable. What you speak speak of in 1 John is a fraudulent insertion.

Humberto, "Let us make man..." doesn't even nearly constitute a trinity. You postulate one Holy Spirit. Revelation asserts there are Seven Holy Spirits.

Nikki, once again as you should have deduced, those verses are fraudulent assertions.

Anomalous, then as a scholar you would know that for respectable scholarship to occur, you recuse yourself because you are biased by your thirst for enlightenment and "that general religious feeling"

Thank you QED, unfortunately the obvious is so often dismissed by bias.

Answer 1

... The Johannine Comma is clearly a late addition to the text, not found in ANY mss or translations prior to the 14th century.

The fact that this was a very late addition to the text of the New Testament in no way impacts the NT's teaching concerning the divinity of Jesus. The Fourth Gospel holds this as its central theme, mentioning it over 40 times. It is also mentioned by Paul, Peter, Luke, Matthew... Those who deny this central teaching of the New Testament have long held onto the non-credible Johannine Comma as one of their primary excuses, but ignore the dozens of passages which explicitly or implicitly speak of the divine Jesus.

No honest appraisal of the scripture can deny that it speaks many times of the divinity of Jesus. Since John mentions several times at which the Jews attempted to kill Jesus for what they perceived to be blasphemy, that he "claimed to be God," as in John 10:31-33...

"Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?”
They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”"

... The Jews clearly understood the message of Jesus and objected to it.

Answer 2

Problem is that verse was inserted into the KJV under suspect conditions. Erasmus wanted to leave it out since it was not found in any greek manuscripts, but after being accused to be an anti-trinitarian he said he would put it in if any greek manuscript could be found with it in it. Suddenly a suspect manuscript was conveniently provided.

So he lost the bet and inserted it. Modern versions leave it out as it's perhaps the most unreliable of verses with regards to being consistent with the manuscript evidence.

Answer 3

I think that is unequivocally true.

It exists in no greek manuscripts before the 16th century (when it was needed by Eramus to include in the KJV of the bible. Erasmus caught a lot of flack for not including it in his first set, and said he would include it if it could be found in a greek manuscript. Lo and behold, someone procured one.)

The only "old" manuscripts it does exist in are latin texts after about 400, well after the trinity was well-established. Ironically, the Catholic Church (to my understanding) doesn't even include it in their versions of the bible.

Besides the story about the stoning of the prostitute, it is the most blatant interpolation in the bible, to be sure.

Answer 4

Dude: The concept of the Trinity is also found in Genesis when God said: "Let us make man..." That "us" is one the hints. Also, in Gen. 1 the Bible says that the Spirit of the Lord moved about the water. That "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit, the third person of the the trinity.
Ta-daaaa.
Mr. M. on "to all."

Answer 5

Read the King James version, never seen those quotes....just read the baptism of Christ to see all three working together, the first chapter of John and the first chapter of Hebrews make these pretty clear. Not to mention that from Genesis to Revelation the references to the three are pretty much constant.

Answer 6

I believe that to look so closely at one postulation or doctrine within one religion is to focus on a single tree in a forest of opportunity for enlightenment.

As a theologian/scholar it pains me to focus so closely on these types of details...and it is hard for me to see how any type of enlightenment can be attained from doing so.

Rather than "defending a doctrine," I assert that it would be more valuable to research/discover information to support or disprove the validity of it in an objective manner.

Look out for my future book, "The Color of Your Soul" release date tba.

Enlightenment relates to understanding...not salvation. Your response to my assertion is a testament to how narrowly you approach what you deem to be theology/scholarship.

Answer 7

1 John 5:6-8

And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death--yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death. And the Holy Spirt, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ's baptism, and the voice before he died. And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Answer 8

Yes, I think it should be considered. Absolutely. Does this dilute the truth? No. Many of us are not handcuffed by the late-in-the-game idea of "Sola Scriptura".

Answer 9

yes-