Atheists and agnostics, will you help me?

Question

I have a friend that is deperately trying to push lutheranism down my throat and i don't understand it enough to shoot him down like i do to others. I need some really good convincing arguments against christanity more specifically if possible lutherans.

I am not an atheist, i just like finding fault in widely accepted ideas. aka, organized religion.
Catholics, luterans, or whatever sect you belong to, i don't want to hear i am going to hell or whatever you say to people like me, i just want people with actuall answers.

kja63: My iq is 143, I am in college two years early. I just don't see much use in typing correctly.

Oops: I love that philosophy but my friend doesn't observe it. If he left me alone and let me worship how I chose, I wouldn't be trying to argue with him.

And to all future contributors: The answer i am seeking isn't to hurt his spirituality, it's to keep him from bugging me.

Answer 1

Sorry I don't know much about Lutheranism per se, but...

I always think there are quite a few religions and if you step back and look at them from an outsider's point of view, none of them seem obviously more valid than the others.

Then I think, "How evil and messed up would you have to be to throw humans into this world where it's not obvious who has the correct version of metaphysics and which books tell you what you're really supposed to believe in, and then have salvation depend on guessing the right one?" I understand free will and all, but free will doesn't mean much when you have no rational way to know what the consequences of your actions would be. It seems to me that a God who loves us would either make it obvious what to believe, or could forgive us if we guess wrong.

Answer 2

I married a Lutheran girl who would never miss a church service no matter what . As a little girl , she walked about three miles and back every Sunday in rain, Pocono winter cold , or summer heat .
We married over fifty-three years ago . I ebcouraged her to continue going to church , which she did . But little by little , she began to miss a few services .
Now , she thinks all of religion is just a big racket . It was the greedy telepreachers bleeding billions from the "suckers" that did it .
Now she is completely free of superstitions .

Answer 3

It's harder because Lutheranism is such a moderate religion. They aren't strong proselytizers. They don't take a literalist view of the Bible so you can't get anywhere by pointing out its contradictions and other flaws.

You could point out Martin Luther's antisemitism. After reforming Christianity in Germany, Luther went to the Jews there and said he thought they were right to have rejected Catholicism, but now he offered them the -real- version of Christianity. They told him they weren't interested and just wanted to be left alone. Luther was so pissed off he wrote a pamphlet saying that Jews should be murdered, their temples destroyed, their writings burned, and even their houses destroyed because they prayed there too.

You could also point out how 400 years of Lutheranism has made Germans a very peaceable and non-aggressive people. 8^)

When it comes to religious doctrine of any kind, I think God wants us to figure things out for ourselves rather than just swallow whole collections of 'truth'. In my conversations with Christians, when I ask about a particular tenet of their faith I am often appalled to hear 'Well, I can't explain it. I don't really understand it. But I BELIEVE it!'

I would much rather understand something, perhaps by reading several different perspectives from people who don't agree, than just BELIEVE it. I would rather be a little skeptical. It's our critical faculties that separate us from the animal kingdom. Anyway, without some real understanding, how can you say you really believe something?

Answer 4

I agree with the previous person. Tell him that it doesn't matter what he says, you are a person that needs solid proof before you devote your life to a life-changing cause. Agnosticism is a way of life and it is fine. Just tell him that if he wants to remain your friend then he should quit trying to convert you, and you won't try to convert him. Don't ever change anything that is a part of your personal system for someone...unless you love them. Doesn't sound like a very good friend to me. I don't have any info about Lutheranism, but my point is: you shouldn't need any, you could know everything there is to know about it and that doesn't necessarily mean that you will BELIEVE. Faith systems are all based on faith. FAITH IS NOT FACT

Answer 5

your best bet would be to first study Lutheranism to be able to find the faults in it. I'm sure there are many as there are in most Organized Sects... even if I could give you the answers though, they wouldn't come from a passionate place within YOU so I don't think the argument would be as convincing...

Answer 6

Well lutheranism is just another branch of catholicism.
It's all the same mythology and childish fairy tales.
Don't let him bug you. If he does, tell him that you'll join up immediately IF and only IF he can provide you with credible, tangible evidence for the existence of god.
He'll leave you alone since there is none.

Answer 7

Ask him about the canonization process of the Bible he leans on for salvation and the will of God.

Ask him which men chose the books of the New Testament and declared them inspired by God.

He wont know, so ask him to do some research then give you an answer. Ask for names.

When he gives you the names, ask him for historic information about their lives, that shows what type of men they were.

This should keep him off your back for quite some time, and will force him to question why he believes.

Many Christians, look down on Mormons, and claim that the life of Joseph Smith, proves that the book of Mormon wasn't inspired.

This is a laughable position, because the men who canonized the bible had multiple concubines and lived lives of violence, politics and greed. How can men like this determine what is of God and what is made up?

Answer 8

Why find fault? Try searching for truth.

I agree that Lutherans are out there... they are a branch off the catholics. 7th day don't believe in a literal hell. And for good reason. Most references to "hell" in the bible are literally translated as "under ground". That means when people die they "sleep" forever... or go to heaven.

They are "burn up" at the end of time with the rest of the earth.

I am not 7th day but I definately like that belief and can be proven by translating the scripture into it original hebrew and arabic.

Answer 9

You don't have to argue against his specific doctrine. Just tell him that you don't believe in gods, any gods, not even the Lutheran version of the Judeo-Christian Biblical deity.

Tell him that no matter how attractive he thinks his particular faith is, and that no matter how much he loves "God" and wants you to do the same, you're steadfast in your conviction and you'd appreciate it if he'd respect your right to be who you are, even if that means NOT being a Lutheran.

Answer 10

I went to a Lutheran Private School as a child. The teachers were very mean to me, and it was probably because they could tell that I was going to grow up to be a gay man. Lutherans are nuts. You should just discontinue the friendship. It's more trouble than it's worth and that theist sounds like a lunatic. Forget him; his friendship can't be worth the "conversion therapy" he'll subtly try to put you through.