Breeders: Would you sell a good dog to someone who likely wouldn't title it?

Question

OK, here's the situation: You have a really nice puppy that there's a good chance will make a phenomenal brood ***** or stud dog.

You have a buyer who is interested in breeding. This buyer has passed all of your tests and could potentially be a great new breeder and exhibitor in your breed. The buyer's willing to do a co-ownership (or some other agreement that you make). The buyer's also willing and eager to listen to and take your advice.

The problem is that the buyer is in an area where there are few other dogs of the breed. So... the buyer will show, but without competition won't likely ever finish. The buyer doesn't have the means or the inclination to travel hundreds of miles to get that elusive major. The buyer may be willing to travel to the national or one big show a year... but possibly not enough to ever finish the dog.

Is this a good match for your puppy?

Pam: All the health tests would be done before breeding. I didn't want to go into all the nitty gritty, but basically, as far as you (the breeder) can tell, this is an excellent buyer in all ways... except that there are no majors in the area.

Remember, the buyer is eager and willing to take your advice--including which dogs to breed or not breed to and even if and when to breed.

Oh... in case I didn't make it clear. This isn't a real situation. Just food for thought.

Rottincherry: "Finish" means that you put a championship on your dog.

Answer 1

Interesting question.

It would depend a lot on the individual case. And the quality of the dog in question, whether it was a male or female, how serious I thought the buyer was about doing what showing they could, how far they were from me. I'd ask whether the dog could be sent to me to get majors once it had all it's singles.

My main concern would be that if they didn't have the means...well, breeding is an expensive business. If they didn't have the inclination...breeding is not for the half-hearted.

I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand, but I'd take a serious look at the situation.

I'm more than happy to place a show-quality dog in a good PET home if no good show homes are available (and have done so in the past), but I'd be more reluctant to place a dog in a BREEDING home without being sure the owner was truly dedicated to the breed and to producing quality animals. It's hard to know that if they can't/won't put in the effort and resources to finish it.

EDIT: Berner mom, the fact that you'd stuck it out long enough to earn obedience titles would score points with me.

Answer 2

I wouldn't completely rule it out, but I would delve much deeper on WHY this person is interested in breeding, if they really have no intention of showing seriously.

If the potential owner has so few other dogs of the breed around, where will they find a mate for the puppy, and of what quality could they expect that mate to be, if there is no way to attend these shows?

If the buyer doesn't have the means to travel to shows, are you CERTAIN that he/she has the means to properly care for your puppy and it's offspring?

With the buyer so far away, who will guide this person through the breeding process, selection of a mate, proper care, finding proper homes for the pups?

What will YOU get out of co-owning a dog that is likely to never have a title?

It's possible that this is a good match for your puppy, but I would ask MANY more questions. From the information you provided, I (personally) would find a different home for the puppy.

Answer 3

I sell my puppies to the best home for that individual dog.

Sometimes its a show home. Sometimes its a pet home. I don't sell my dogs to other breeders who kennel their dogs. I want my dogs to be beloved pets FIRST.

My last litter I sold the pick of the litter (by 3 longtime breeder's standards) to a pet home. *I* took what they considered 3rd pick... I didn't like the front end structure of the 2nd pick (who the stud owner took) because the dog *I* kept will be actually worked. The first pick had a temprement that was too soft for working as a Service Dog. His owners have the option of allowing me to look at him as an adult once he's had his Hips/Elbows/Eyes certified (in my contract for ALL dogs sold not just the show dogs) and then opening a discussion about showing, freezing semen or neutering.

Finishing a dog is one of the least of my worries. I would worry more about:
whether the owner has educated themselves about breeding dogs
whether the owner understands what issues there are in the pedigree as well as which lines combine well with it and which are a disaster
whether the owner has a CLUE about placing puppies in good homes and has the ability and desire to take back any puppy who cannot stay in its home

I really would worry more about the integrity of the person than whether or not it finished its championship.

That being said... *I* personally will not show a dog that requires more than a pretty minimal number of shows to finish. Its really about quality... why drag a dog to 100's of shows when that FIRMLY indicates the dog is not of high quality?

I might consider offering to show the dog for a month's time... look at the judging schedule and the dog and decide if that might be a workable solution to finishing the dog.

Heck, I probably look like a bad show home prospect... over the last 3 years I've shown 2 or 3 weekends a year... however the dog is of high enough quality that she has 11 points with a 4 point major. The last dog I finished I showed 4 weekends and finished him with 17 pts and 5 majors in 40 days- high quality dogs don't necessarily have to be shown a lot to finish. You train the dog.. and wait to show it until its ready to win. (which is why my Berner babies aren't being show... leggy uncoordinated doofus's that they are at the moment).

Answer 4

Is the buyer interested in letting a pro handler go out with the dog?
At least this way the dog will get to shows other than your National where the #`s will be.
Other than that I would also say that if you are that sure your pup should do well at Nationals and perhaps be able to pick up it`s majors there.
Who`s in a hurry anyway`s if it`s a good caliber dog folks will see at at local shows and eventually you might be able to increase the #`s of the breed in the area.
I know where I used to live in Oregon I basically had to enter several of my Flatcoats to create Majors.
Nothing is impossible or set in stone .

Answer 5

Wow, it sounds like you could be talking about me (but I'm more interested in showing then breeding:)

I am interested in getting a show pup. I don't have any experience in showing, but I didn't have any in Obedience and my dog has her CGC, RN and CD title.

My biggest obstacle is 1st finding a breeder that you can get a show pup from! Since I lack the experience they are hesitant about letting me get a show pup from them. Which, I can understand the breeders side of it, but I also think that everyone has to start somewhere and they got their start by someone putting some trust in them.

The 2nd problem is that I am limited in traveling to shows. I would only be able to travel on the East Coast.

So, maybe if you can keep a handle on the breeding side of it, I would give this person a chance....But also bear in mind I say this because I am hoping this is what will be done for me in the future:)

Good Luck in your decision

Answer 6

I dont breed, but here's my thoughts

It may depend.. if the potential owner is willing to send the puppy back to me so I can show it, or have it sent to a handlers home so it can be shown. If its such a great Stud/Brood.. I would want that title on it to proove it!


There are people out there who will agree to just about anything to get a breeding dog, but do not want to put the time, effort or expense into having the dog shown. If the person is totally unwilling to work out a way to get that dog titled, I wouldnt go for it.

Answer 7

With a co-ownership in this type of situation, the breeder/co-owner could handle the dog or their professional handler so the dog or ***** can would be able to finish.

Unfortunately, I saw no mention or concerns of health testing, only mention of breeding, so no I would not sell "this buyer" a pup!

Hips cannot be OFA'd until 24 month. Some health issues don't surface until after 3yr of age.

Answer 8

The reality of it is this...the buyer has passed all the "tests" for a good home. IF they are willing to pay the price this quality pup is worth, then who's business is it to tell them what to do with it? I know breeders like to see the full potential of their champion's offspring met, but attaching strings to a deal is bad business. It only sets someone up to get hurt. I think if the pup is that special it should be kept in the first place, not sold.

Answer 9

If one of my pups are of good production, and looks to be a great show potential... then I would have to say no to this owner. I want my dogs to do well. I want them to have the opportunity to show and be seen in the ring to show the dog world that my dogs are well bred, and thought out specimens of the breed. If they want to breed this type of dog I would suggest they get something going or being willing to put the effort in to title the dog. I dont want the breeding my dogs with out a title. Even if they co-owned it. If they signed an agreement with another KNOWN shower of good caliber, and or me. Then let us take the dog to shows and get it titled for them then yes I would. If they didnt agree, I would suggest they get one of my less, quality show animals, one I know wouldnt title easily, or at all and have them fixed. Of the 2 litters I have ever produced with my Cardigan Welsh Corgis I had only one 1 pup out of 7 total that was a total disqualification due to excessive amounts of white on a Tri-color dog, Her blaze over extended past an eye on the left side. Common between Blue Merle and Tri breedings. 1 pup later was had a fair hip test result and was fixed per my contract and one was returned to me because of family issues with the owner but was later re-homed. I do EVERYthing possible to insure my pure-bred dogs are top quality, and go to the right people. I would be devistated with all my hard work to see someone not take pleasure in showing my quality dog and not try to get that gorgeous animal Titled. Though I would never deny my dog a great home with loving parents. So thats a dilema I guess i would have to know the people super well to make that kind of choice.

This is a thought provoking question and the more I thought about the more I would have to say no to this person. The pup would have to take a year or 2 to show its true potential. It would need to be in this persons care that long, it would need the correct conformation and a lot of people looking at this dog to prove the dog was of sound health, body, and conformation. If that person was living in an area that didnt have a lot of this breed, I dont know if I would trust a Judge that was a expert in another type of dog to be saying if this dog was quality stock or not. I live in a state that has a very LOW population of Cardigans, while there is a HIGH population of Pembrokes... I dont think judging a Pembroke is the same as judging a Cardigan, also the last show I went to in my home state my dog was up against only 1 other Cardigan. I have to travel out of state in order to get a good show. Its PART of owning a Quality, showable, dog. Though if I had absolutely NO show people interested in dogs at the time, I would consider it as a possiblity. ONLY if there was no other way and the dog was in danger of not having a wonderful permenant home. Though it would go out be-grudgingly with a spay/nueter contract or a NO PUPPY policy stating I would take the dog back if it was allowed to produce before being deemed suitable for breeding by a proffesional or myself. Though wouldnt take that liberty in a decision like that.

Answer 10

It's a difficult decision. If you have an exceptional puppy, of course you want this puppy to be a champion. On the other hand, you have a puppy buyer who is willing to listen to your every advise, whom is so difficult to find. If I have to choose, I will sell the puppy to this buyer with a co-ownership. If this buyer lives close to where I live, I will offer showing this puppy myself (that's even better :o)
By the way, thanks for posting this kind of question to have everybody to get away from those name my puppy, how to house train my puppy type of questions.