Atheists: How can something evolve from nothing, when the universe is finite in age?

Question

Trick: Not asking you to prove. Just asking for an explanation on how it could be reasonably possible!

"A team of researchers claims to have established the age of the universe at between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years."

www.space.com

God has always been, according to the Bible. Since there is evidence of the Bible being true, than there is evidence that God has always been.

Lucifer, you said: "Because nothing is an actual something"

I thought atheists claim to be logical?

"Nothing is valuable space."

No.

Nothing is nothing.

Actual space is actual space.

Kjel: I don't reasonably believe you. Why? You've given me no reason to, other than claiming what you claim.

If I say I belief apples are oranges and give no support. Would that make my belief reasonable? According to your reasoning, it would.

Kjel: You said, "There is more evidence the bible is a lie, God is fake."

You AGAIN, claim something without explaing any reasons to believe it.

tawaen said, "Abiogenesis. Have a i nice day."

LOL.

You use this against me like the study of abiogenesis, or the study of nothing to something is fully developed. The truth is, it's hardly at all developed. Atheists are like a broken record. I'm always having to repeat myself.

Analogy:

Say you want me to explain how God has always been. And I give you this answer:

Drink.

Godtybogliosis: Which means nothing other than the study of how God has always been.

Have a nice day.


Would this be reasonable? No.

alana: "Why do theists think all atheists are scientists?"

I don't know, why do you assume this?

Neil, if it isn't possible that something can come from nothing, how did we come to be? If we were not created. You must assume that space, laws of gravity, laws of physics, etc... = nothing.

Corrupt: You said, "you forgot to add "observable" before universe in your question"

But you assume that since we can't observe the whole universe, we can't prove how old it is.

Analogy: Say I'm making a puzzle, and I'm half way through it, and there's no box to tell me what the end picture will be. Using your reasoning, it would be impossible to know what the picture will looks like. My point is, you assume the impossibility that we wouldn't even need to know or see the entire universe in order to know whether it is infinite in age or finite in age.

Check this out everyone.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/age_universe_030103.html

Scuba: Where did these "strings of energy" come from.

Unless you assume that energy = nothing. Which I hope for your reasoning's sake, you don't.

Farien: You said, "Things don't evolve from 'nothing', dude. They evolve from an earlier form."

What is this earlier form you speak of? lol...

Sansfear: You assume that matter = nothing.

This is what you said, "The matter that the universe exploded from is probably infinite in nature."

Matter is what makes up the universe. You assume that it doesn't. Matter is matter and it is not nothing.

Eleventy: You said, "True nothingness is unstable."

No, true nothingness has no characteristics, no laws, nothing. It has nothing. Nothing nothing nothing. IT HAS NOTHING. lol.

Sansfear: The simple fact that you are desperately trying to make this a discussion about the Bible now, really shows how much lack of faith you have in your own belief. You keep this up, and I bet you'll be reading your Bible within a few months!!! Lol.

Someone said(forgot who): "how can god exist from nothing? oops that is a question."

Because God was the creator, and has always existed. Something had to, right? Or am I wrong when I say that something had to always exist? Can something really come from nothing? THAT is the question.

"Claiming that Matter always existed"

According to your scientific website, matter didn't always exist. You're dodging the question. Matter = what the universe is made up of. Matter does not equal nothing as you assume (however unknowlingly I guess) Because you claim that matter has always been, but if it is apart of the universe, than it hasn't always been, because the universe hasn't always been.

Answer 1

True nothingness is unstable. "Something" is inevitable. With the balance of energy/mass and negative gravitional energy, no miracle appears to be necessary.


There's also the possibility of a multiverse and M-Theory.

Answer 2

I've never heard an atheist suggest that something evolved from nothing. That is not what is suggested by the Big Bang theory, the theory of evolution, or abiogenesis.

"Since there is evidence of the Bible being true, than there is evidence that God has always been."
That's ridiculous.

"[...] the study of abiogenesis, or the study of nothing to something [...]" Abiogenesis has nothing to do with something coming from nothing. It is the study of how life developed from inorganic matter. If you think inorganic matter is 'nothing' then how the hell are you writing these questions?

"If we were not created. You must assume that space, laws of gravity, laws of physics, etc... = nothing." That is probably the most absurd thing I've seen you write.

"What is this earlier form you speak of? lol"
It's not polite to laugh out loud at someone who just gave a perfectly reasonable answer demonstrating the inherent flaws of your question.

"Sansfear: The simple fact that you are desperately trying to make this a discussion about the Bible now, really shows how much lack of faith you have in your own belief. You keep this up, and I bet you'll be reading your Bible within a few months!!! Lol."
Actually he already answered your question, and he made comments about the Bible in response to your assertion that there is evidence the Bible is true. It's interesting that you didn't respond to any of his points about the Bible.

"Matter is APART of the UNIVERSE..... It EXISTS within the UNIVERSE.... If matter ALWAYS was.......than the universe ALWAYS was.......Since SCIENCE has proven the UNIVERSE is FINITE, that would also mean that MATTER is FINITE. So long as matter exists, a universe exists. Because MATTER makes up THE UNIVERSE. (Not yelling just emphasizing) I really want you to quit acting like you don't understand what I'm saying."
It's nice of you to spell it out like that so we can see exactly where you've become confused. When scientists talk about the age of the universe, they're talking about how long ago the Big Bang happened. Most place it somewhere in the area of 13 billion years ago. This does not mean that all the matter and energy in the universe did not exist before this. It doesn't mean that 13 billion years ago there was 'nothing'. It simply means that the Big Bang happened 13 billion years ago, give or take a few billion. So your premise that the universe's finite age means that something must have evolved from nothing is flawed. See?
Since you like analogies so much, imagine if I were to tell you that a certain wooden chair is fifty years old. Fifty years ago, that chair did not exist. However, that doesn't mean that the chair formed from nothing fifty years ago. The wood from which it was made already existed, the only thing that happened fifty years ago would be the transformation of that wood from a tree trunk, to pieces of timber, to a chair. Similarly, the fact that our universe formed 13 billion years ago doesn't mean that it formed 'from nothing' 13 billion years ago. The difference is that we're currently unable to know what happened before the universe formed, so we can't (and don't) say with any certainty what exactly existed before the universe. But that certainly doesn't mean the answer is 'nothing'.

Answer 3

Peter Pan is real too huh? Since England exists and all. Also the DaVinci Code must be true too since there's evidence for parts of that. There's a logical fallacy there that I'm not sure what the Greek term for it is but I'd bet it means truth of parts doesn't mean truth of the whole.

Also something doesnt evolve from nothing. The Big Bang theory says that the universe formed from a singularity. Anything that existed before the singularity is irrelavent because it can't be measured and has no bearing on the current universe. The singularity could have been a collapsed universe or could have always existed.

Abiogenesis is the theory that inorganic molecules formed amino acids which formed proteins which formed cells. Evolution takes off after that. That bears repeating. Evolution is what occurred AFTER the cells formed.

Answer 4

Why do theists think all atheists are scientists? I mean it is flattering but I think you might get a better answer if you posted this in the correct section. Then again, you don't really want an answer now do you?

When you can explain where an omnipotent infinite being came from then I will explain the basics of the universe. Good luck with that...

Edit: There is no proof that the bible was inspired by a god. If it was then I do not think we would be having this conversation. You can simply google the big bang if you are truly interested. Just because we do not have all the answers does not mean that we should just throw up our hands and give credit to some god.

Answer 5

The universe as it currently exists is thought to have a finite age. The matter that the universe exploded from is probably infinite in nature.

I think this position is more reasonable than believing that an All powerful deity, that has no tangible evidence associated with it always existed and created everything.

Why is it unreasonable to believe that matter always existed vs. God?

--EDit--
Evidence that parts of the bible are accurate is hardly enough to hang your hat on. There are parts of Moby Dick that are absolutely accurate, that doesn't mean it is reasonable to believe that wales actively seek fishermen with malice.

Edit...

Proof that parts of the bible are lies or fabrication.

Show me just one instance where any of the miraculous things listed in the bible can be duplicated. Faith exists today, as it did in the past. Use it to turn water into wine, or walk across a lake during a storm, or stop the rotation of the earth so the Joshua can kill the rest of the Gentiles.

The fact is that these supernatural events cannot be duplicated in a controlled environment. That indicates that they are lies, or exaggerations made up as stories are passed from generation to generation. Just like the theory that Leprechauns control rainbows is not duplicate or measurable, therefor probably only myth. There is no difference between believing in Leprechauns and God, beyond popularity and early indoctrination.

EDIT---

Claiming that Matter always existed, is not the same as claiming it is nothing. You are assuming that nothing always existed, I don't find that belief reasonable.

Edit-- I constantly read the bible because I find it interesting, I no longer read it for guidance in life or as an indication of the nature of a God that cannot exist.

Unfortunately, most of the people who claim to follow the bible and the teachings in it, haven't really explored it or thought through the logical implications of believing in some of its doctrines.

EDIT--

Once again you claim that an all powerful being that always existed is more reasonable than matter always existing. Your premise is flawed.


Edit -

You make the assumption that Matter has always existed in the same form, yet we can see through simple experimentation that Energy and matter are interchangeable. Light a peice of paper on fire, and you will see the matter change form. Big Bang theory states that the universe has gone through incredible changes. The age of the universe as it exists in its current form looks like it can be calculated, however. Prior to the big bang, it is likely that matter was in the form of a singularity. That singularity is most likely infinite, including space and time. Just because matter takes another form, doesn't mean it no longer exists, or is finite in nature.

When you burn that piece of paper, the matter changes, but still exists, in the form of energy and carbon, it doesn't revert to nothing, which your argument assumes.

Show me an instance where matter can be turned to nothing, and I will begin to believe that it is possible for it to have been created from nothing, but till that happens, there is no reason to believe it hasn't always existed in one form or another. There is no such thing as 'Nothingness', that is another theory made popular by the bible.


EDIT---
The complexity must require creation argument, means that your God must have been created.

Answer 6

The universe as we know it is finite, the matter/energy has been here forever and will remain forever. It may collapse upon itself again and start over again, but it will always be here in some form, even if the earth is compressed into the size of a pin head, it will still be here, just not in a recognizable form nor will it ever be again. That won't be for another 80 - 300 billion years though, so don't panic.

There is more evidence the bible is a lie, God is fake.

Answer 7

One explanation that I have bandied about, is that just as you would claim God has always existed ( and for that matter so would I,l used this argument in my Atheist Days) The matter has always existed, and the age of the universe is relative to the current iteration of this universe form the Big Bang.

We are currently in the expansion phase of that explosion, eventually we will start on the contraction phase, and all matter and energy in the universe will once again be compiled into one large lump of matter.

Until it explodes again. in a recurring cycle that is infinite in nature.

Answer 8

I don't know if the Universe is finite. I don't know if it isn't one Universe within another gazillion universes, or even if the other gazillion are locked away in a subatomic particle on the nosehair of some alien life-form.

I never was unimaginative or arrogant enough to think that if I didn't know something, then it must be a man in the sky wot did it.

Even when I was 5 years old I was asking other adults: 'who made God then?'...

"Oh but God is always there"

"So why wasn't the universe always there?"

"Stop being a smartypants and eat your malties.."

Answer 9

Who makes that claim?

You have nothing but a strawman argument here.


Life evolves from other living things. Life starts with the combination of chemicals as dictated by chemical laws. Chemicals come from fusion reactions in stars, stars come from clouds of hydrogen. Clouds of hydrogen come from energy condensing into matter. The energy came from the big bang. We do not yet have a good hypothesis for where the big bang came from, but Brane theory is looking promising.


You would look a lot smarter if you actually bothered to learn the real science behind what you are trying to argue against.

Answer 10

The only people who claim that something came out of nothing, are creationists.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with the finite age of the universe. Try learning the difference between biology, physics, cosmology, and astronomy before you try to get into a verbal debate about one of these sciences.

Though why you're discussion science on a religion-themed forum in the first place, I don't know. Unless you acutally think you can "stump" people into taking up your religion.

Answer 11

Things don't evolve from 'nothing', dude. They evolve from an earlier form. Also, simply because the big bang happened at a certain time, does NOT mean that the universe or reality itself is finite in age. It doesn't have to be, necessarily. People tend to think it is only because as humans we are not capable of really imagining that which is infinite.