Mormons/LDS: Why did Joseph Smith describe the Godhead this way in the fifth Lecture on Faith (LoF 5)?

Question

2a: There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible;

2b: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space.

2c: They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.

2d: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image.

2j: And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father;

2k: which Mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son;"

Background: Lectures on Faith was canonized as part of the Doctrine and Covenants until 1921 and removed because of theological conflicts with D&C 130 and other revelations.

LoF 5: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-005.htm

D&C 130: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/130/22-23#22

Questions:
1. Why did Smith differentiate between the Father's spirit essence and Christ's tabernacle body?

2. Why did he claim that there were only two personages (and one Mind) in the Godhead?

3. Why did he describe the Holy Spirit as simply the shared Mind/power of God and Christ, and not a personage of Himself?


All answers appreciated. Thank you.

Angelica: I appreciate your sentiments, but I am not trying to imply that anyone is stupid. In fact, I would be willing to bet that this is not an issue of intelligence, but rather of knowledge. It would appear that most of the answerers haven't read this paragraph recently, if at all. It has been about three years for me, and to tell you the truth, I had forgotten all about it until I came across it again this morning.

D&C 130:23 calls the Spirit a personage.

Answer 1

What are you getting at?
Ah, that makes sense.
Why ask us a question we can't win at? You already have your mind made up! Unless you indicate that you are earnestly seeking answers hoping that your mind can be changed, I will answer very simply. It's called progressive revelation. I'm not gonna fight a losing battle with someone who wants to prove to us we're stupid.

Personally, i don't see how they are that much different. Or conflicting, Guess it's all in interpretation.


Okay, since I'm now irritated with the anti's that answered, I'll answer.
1. Why did Smith differentiate between the Father's spirit essence and Christ's tabernacle body?
Because the Father had already achieved exaltation. He is a personage of spirit, perfected in a body. Smith described Jesus as a tabernacle because he was sent here to be tried like us. He was the only indication that we have of Gods. His being here was symbolic, God is in heaven, God was here with you in person, and the Holy Ghost is God with you all the time.

2. Why did he claim that there were only two personages (and one Mind) in the Godhead? Because they are...that's evident in D&C too, it says that the Holy ghost doesn't have a body...Both say that. Not conflicting.

3. Why did he describe the Holy Spirit as simply the shared Mind/power of God and Christ, and not a personage of Himself?
Wah. I missed it then. lol. Once again, I chalk it up to progressive revelation. And where, for the record does it mention ONLY? Those were the personages he was talking about. He never said ONLY.


I agree with Dionysius, it was too confusing to sit there and listen to people pick apart words like "personage" and "spirit". I'm all for examination, but if you sit there and split hairs all day long, you really miss the point of the scripture, which is precisely my answer to your first question. I mean, we don't include certain things as gospel. Like the dead sea scrolls. you have to pick the ones that sound closest to your message. The first one was not wrong, but the second one was more consistent with Joseph's other teachings.

Answer 2

1. He is showing the difference that God the Father is already a perfected being and Christ had yet to fulfill his earthly mission and obtain his "tabernacle" or body, he was not in the same "state" I do not think as God yet.
2. There are only 2 personages. The Holy Ghost is a spirit, he has no body. So in that sense, not a personage, but a "spirit personage"...he has no physical form literally but the spirit form of a "personage" or man.
3. This is kind of the same question as #2. Though he is part of the Godhead, he does not have a physical form and is not on the same "level" as God and Jesus Christ. He has no body, he is a spirit personage.

That of course, is my own opinion of what was said. In my mind, I feel as though I understand it more clearly than how I can express it in words...sorry.

Answer 3

Questions:
1. Why did Smith differentiate between the Father's spirit essence and Christ's tabernacle body?

The Father and Son are seperate and distinct individuals, they have their own bodies, the Father's being perfect and full of Glory because of His station.

2. Why did he claim that there were only two personages (and one Mind) in the Godhead?

He did not claim that there were only two in the Godhead, but that there were only two that had bodies. The Holy Spirit is a personage of Spirit, but does not have a physical body, like the Father and Son. (Again, the Father and son each have their own perfected body, full of Glory and Light.

3. Why did he describe the Holy Spirit as simply the shared Mind/power of God and Christ, and not a personage of Himself? See the answer to number 2. We are talking actual physicak Bodies, which the Spirit does not have.

and btw T_A_M_I , these do not conflict with teachings from the bible. Quit being on the defensive and stop and learn something. How do you think of God? As a real individual, a "High Preist that can not be touched" (Hebrews ch 8) or simply as a nice idea?

Answer 4

Because physical beings (humans) always have a hard time defining infinite and eternal concepts in finite, time-oriented terms (language).

Questions:
1. Why did Smith differentiate between the Father's spirit essence and Christ's tabernacle body?

Joseph was always learning, as we all are constantly, about the nature of God and Jesus. Joseph was not a scholar. He was trying to convey thoughts into words that all might understand. Sometimes he missed the mark, which leads to misunderstanding and even ( more dangerously) misinterpretation. God the Father and Jesus the Christ are different entities. There has to be some discernment, but language is not always the best avenue for completing this.

2. Why did he claim that there were only two personages (and one Mind) in the Godhead?

Because that is exactly what there is. Two personages, God the Father and Jesus the Christ. Two personages with physical (though not as we define the term) bodies and the Holy Ghost. The spirit and gift of discernment. Much like discussions of the soul - we try, as humans, to fit all things in to the physical context which we know and can explain and relate to. Not everything from other planes will fit into our finite knowledge. Again, words do not do justice to effort in conveying meaning.

3. Why did he describe the Holy Spirit as simply the shared Mind/power of God and Christ, and not a personage of Himself?

Because the Holy Ghost operates on the 'mind of God'. Because They are single in Their purpose and goals, and the Holy Ghost moves that into our physical brain or heart or soul....you choose. Because he could not fully explain a non-physical personage in accepted terms for the people then (or now).

Almost all religious discussions can be broken down to the fact that we do not have the words to explain eternal plane happenings into our physical/finite world. I believe this is the 'power' if you will of the veil. It is also the protection. We agreed to abide by the constraints of this world. With that kind of knowledge we would not be able to. For further info on this, much better explained, check out Ludwig Wittgenstein's book On Certainty.

Answer 5

I dont understand your question.

We believe that there are 3 seperete beings that constitute the Godhead, Father, son and Holy Ghost.
We believe that Christ organized this earth under the direction and priesthood power of the our Heavenly Father. And we believe it is thru the Holy spirit that our heavenly father testifies of all truth.



There is no real mention or doctrine on the Holy Ghost actually participating in the creation process. There really isnt much mention of the Holy Ghost contributions besides as the spirit which testifies of truth. We just dont know exactly what he was responsible for in terms of the preexistance and creation. If God entrusts him to be his messenger that testifies of truth then that is a pretty awesome responsibility.

God is the power that Christ gets all his power and authority from. Everything he has done on behalf of us has been done thru the perfected glory and power of our Heavenly Father. That is why Christ is not God, because it isnt thru his own power, but that of the priesthood power of God that everything we know has come to pass. In terms of our creation and our eternal salvation we know that there is only one God we worship, which is our heavenly father, and that Christ and the Holy Ghost both work thru his power.
One mind=one plan, one purpose.

Answer 6

I am in accordance with Dr. M I believe the Word of Wisdom to be inspired by God. No Joseph did not want to take money from any body. If that were the case he had a bad habit of giving it to those in need and/or in the service of the Lord. He was a poor man, and worked for the things he acquired and was never hesitant to share what he had with any of the Saints. He was always in the service of others, just as Christ taught.

Answer 7

It was removed because of this very reason. Someone like yourself reading "a personage of spirit" and assuming that this is Smith's full description of the Father

If Jesus is "a personage of tabernacle" does that mean He has no spirit?

Ludicrous

D

Answer 8

You already have some good answers from the active Mormons here. Have some gummy bears and don't get hung up on little details. Think right-brained and whole-brained instead of left-brained. Have a happy day.

Answer 9

I don't think he's describing the Godhead, but Jesus Christ, who is referred to as the Father and the Son in LDS scripture. (see Alma 11)

In fact, the discourse between Alma/Amulek and Zeezrom reminds me alot of the discourses here between you and faithful LDS people. (see Alma 12:11)

Joseph Smith wasn't omniscient, nor was his knowledge of the gospel perfect. He was human and made mistakes. He learned things as time went on. Just like we do.

Answer 10

All i can tell you is that If your wanting to reference something that LDS preaches or Believes. D&C is a good section simply because they take barely anything out of the KJV to teach and tell you about. Most references made by Mormons are from The BOM or D&C. THats a fact .