Christians/Everyone: Can you explain to me how you know you aren't self-proclaiming? Can you prove this?

Question

If you don't know, and just belief you aren't self-proclaiming, please support your belief by giving reasons why you feel your belief is reasonable.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer.

PS: Self-proclaiming ,to me, means blind faith. Or that, "You just believe because you don't want to go to Hell." Or, "You just believe because you believe."

PLEASE refer back to this question, as I will be responding to almost everyone. Thanks guys. God Bless.

Please use the definition of "Self-proclaiming" within my own context."

Many are playing semantics and using their definition of the word over mine. This is precisely the reason I've given all of you my meaning of the word before hand...

Also, just because atheists don't believe, doesn't mean they are void of the accusation of being self-proclaimed (my context)

It is irrational for one to say, "I don't believe in God, therefore I have no belief in a lack of belief in God." You have a belief either way, therefore atheists can also be accused of being self-proclaimed. Such as saying, "I believe in no God because God can't be proved." This is an atheist who is self-proclaimed. Or, "I believe there is no God because I chose to ignore evidence of order in the universe, which is evidence of God." BTW: evidence = reason to belief in something. proof = something you need to support for things you claim to know.

I've explained this because I feel it is important to know that a few of you so far have changed my context of the meaning "self-proclaimed" to a different context in order to support your views.

Lion of Judah, you believe as well as I do, that all of that makes sense. I wish this were open to non-believers so that they may also see this. Since the claim that God reveals His "proof" to believers only, comes from the Bible, I believe in order for this to have any substance, we must give support and reasons for the Bible being true, in order for others to have reason to believe in the Bible. Can you please share reasons why you claim the Bible to be reasonably true?

Lion of Judah: Also, thank you for sharing this information, I haven't yet been able to put into words, like you have, of the way I've felt about this claim. Well done.

kent: All of those are simply claims with no support. Please give reasons to why you claim these things, so that they may be confirmed as reasonably claims.

su: You said, "...so it is impossible for my to not be self proclaiming."

You've taken the meaning of the word "self-proclaiming" out of the context in which I've explained.

The context in which I've explained, would make it possible to not be self-proclaiming, whether you share a belief in God, or a belief in no God.

"I dont believe so I am not self proclaiming as you put it."

If you don't believe in God, you believe there is no God. Therefore you can be a self-proclaimed atheist. Here's a new example, "I have no reason for believing in no God, because I don't need a reason to reasonably belief this." Or, "I don't believe in God, because religious people are crazy." Or, "I don't believe in God, because it's rediculous." Or, "I don't believe in God, because God cannot be proved." All of these are claims with either flawed reasoning or no reasons why. Therefore these claims would be unreasonable or blind.

PS: Claire made the above claim.

gibbon: You have the same flawed reasoning as Clair. Read my explanation I've given her and explain why you disagree if you do.

Anna: You've reasonably supported all of you claims except one. Here's why:

You said, "I believe because I have read the Bible often..."

You probably realize it by now, but a person can easily contend this by saying, "I believe in flying elephants, because I watch the movie Dumbo often." Therefore there is no reason to claim that just because you've read the Bible often, doesn't mean you're going to believe. And this is true, many atheists have read the Bible, yet still don't believe.

ChristsWitch: You used the same flawed reasoning as Clair.

Traveling, you claim, "The Catholic Church is the only one that makes any sense to me."

When you say Catholic Church, do you mean the only religion that makes sense to you is Catholic? Do you believe that churches rule over the Bible? Please clear this up so I can further analyze your response.

Muslim Man: I will address your response as soon as I get some work done, as I'll probably be giving your response alot of attention. I have to go for now, let me know if you're in fact going to refer back to this question by typing "Edit - Yes" Thank you.

kent: You completely missed my point, to the point where it's almost irresponsible.

Kent: You said, "All of these ARE simply claims with no external/independent support. That is the point."

That's your point. My point refutes your point. Using this analogy, I hope you can better understand my point.

If I say an apple is an orange, this is a claim without reason. You would have to imply that this is "my truth" and not THE truth. Actually my truth means nothing, as does "your truth" (under your reasoning). So in essence it isn't even a truth. Just like my claim that apples aren't oranges would be unreasonable, unless it is supported. Which I have no support, therefore there would be no reason to believe it, therefore it would be unreasonable. Just as your claims continue to be unreasonable, until you can give reason to them. Do you not understand what I'm saying yet? Please explain this away with some kind of irrational denial, I'm sure it's coming.

Answer 1

I freely admit that I self-proclaim that individual spirituality is preferrable to mind control.

I freely self-proclaim that the objective world is best measured by science, and that the subjective aspects of the universe should not be expected to overlap.

I freely self-proclaim my belief that people should respect each other, tolerate our differences, and even celebrate those differences. I freely admit my intolerance for those who refuse to respect others, and I make no apology for that seeming contradiction.

ADDED PER YOUR FOLLOW-UP:
All of these ARE simply claims with no external/independent support. That is the point. One does not need ancient texts or whatever to prop up individual ethics or morality. I am not looking for any outside "confirmation;" that would be rather pointless. I claim them because they are true to me. If others find value in my words, good for them. If not, no one (including myself) is out anything.

What I wrote was self-proclaiming, as I stated. I make no pretense otherwise. I do not see this as 'blind faith,' though, as I am quite willing to entertain other notions and adapt my philosophy if it becomes appropriate.

ADDED AGAIN:
I've understood your point the entire time. But I am not discussing tangibles like apples, I am discussing subjectives like values. Thus you have "refuted" nothing.

You clearly have no intention of hearing anything other than what you want to understand; it's a convienent way to "win" a point - by filtering out what does not fit (or rather, what you can spin into being a non-fit).

It's a shame, really. You seem like an intelligent person, yet you cling to circular "logic."

ONE LAST SUMMARY:
Your question (remember that?) was "Can you explain to me how you know you aren't self-proclaiming? Can you prove this?"

My point (had you not been trying to read only what you wanted to) is that I know I AM self-proclaiming - intentionally. Just as I would self-proclaim my favorite flavor of ice cream - I need no outside corroboration to justify a subjective.

You finish by saying, "Please explain this away with some kind of irrational denial, I'm sure it's coming." In doing so, you demonstrate your own limitations far more vividly than I could ever hope to. Well done.

Answer 2

That's an interesting question.

I believe I am not self-proclaiming (as you define it), because I do not believe in blind faith. I also believe that there are appropriate and inappropriate uses for faith.

I believe faith is a tool you should use to enable yourself to withstand hardship. Faith should not be something you use in an attempt to avoid hardship, yet avoiding hardship seems to be a lot of what people pray for--that someone will live, recover from an illness, etc. To me, prayer should be used to sustain yourself and a petient during an illness or to sustain yourself after a death or a house fire, or Katrina, etc.

If you ever read a book called The Cloud of Unknowing, its author advocates that contemplative prayer ought to be simple concentration on loving God, that you should clear your mind of all else, as much as possible, and concentrate only on reaching God with your love. Once you think about loving someone else, you concentrate less on your own troubles, and you feel better.

I am not very good at that yet, but it's what I strive for, so that's why I believe my faith is not blind. When I pray, I have a purpose and a goal in mind. I have faith because I believe it's logical and helpful to have faith, rather than because anyone told me I must have it, to be considered righteous.

Answer 3

Here is an intellectual account of a very un-intellectual journey!

The transitory and elusive nature of the Ego is objectively verifiable. (Sources: Jiddu Krishnamurti, Sam Harris, Aldous Huxley, many more). Which means that from within I am able to see that the bundle of hopes and fears and preferneces and memory that I call ME exists as a construct of the body. I am able to turn this part of me towards the purposes of humility and love and when I do I tap into a much greater spiritual energy within myself, what I call Soul. And this Soul is pretty clearly and in a literal sense that corresponds to the Chinese concept of qi connected to a greater spiritual energy without, something that runs through all things. This is the Perennial Philosophy.

All mystical religion is predicated on this idea about ourselves and the universe and the divine ground of our being. Christianity is one such religion that has a mystical strand within it (Marcus Borg, Huston Smith, Leo Tolstoy, Meister Eckhart, Nikos Kazantzakis, etc).

Over and above this direct experience within myself (which is objective for me, subjective when I share it with you - there is no objective rationale for faith), I also evaluate the truth claim that God was uniquely present in and worked through Jesus Christ. I believe this is true for various reasons:

(1) Christianity is a religion that I could not have guessed. The very idea that God loses in a conventional sense and is murdered on a cross and does not, in fact, liberate and reward the good and puish the bad is counter-intuitive to nearly every other religion and thus is not explained by mere appeal to the ubiquitous human religious experience.

(2) Christianity still exists and the traditions of the early church fathers have been preserved via Catholicism. It seems that the people who were closest to Jesus experienced him as God.

(3) Acting as if Christianity were true confirmed for me the experiences that Christianity claims will happen.

(4) The Bible contains too many inconveniences - Jesus is imperfect, contradicts himself, is occasionally rude, and he dies. If the story had been constructed on the basis of convenience these instances would also have been edited out.

(5) My notion of the good, which is independent of my faith and could best be described as love good/hate bad, are reflected very well in Jesus' vision of the Kingdom of God on earth (where the last shall be first) and in Jesus' development and strongest teachings.

I hope this is responsive enough!

Answer 4

Jesus spoke many times about being obedient to his Father, Luke 22:42, and Christians are to be obedient to Jesus and God and to his will. John 14:21; Romans 12:2.

What I proclaim from the Bible does not come from me and is founded, I hope, upon obedience and humility.

I believe because the Spirit spoke to me many years ago, as he does to all unbelievers who hear the gospel. Psalm 25:8; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 1:12; Romans 10:17. My faith grows as a result of my study, my life as a Christian, but also from the evidence that is found in God's creation, which includes that which is within me - my conscience and things which are too obvious to ignore. Romans 1:18-20.

Of course, I still don't understand everything and what I really need to know will be made known to me, in full, when I see God. 1 Corinthians 13:12.

Answer 5

I do not believe I am self proclaiming, but because I am the one that has experienced it, to others I may seem self proclaiming.
Ok. I believe in the wiccan religion. I didn't used to. I mean, everyone has their doubts. But when I did my first spell,(before I started studying the wiccan beliefs) It worked a little too well.

I was decieved by my closest friend, who let out a secret about me that made me an outcast. So I got really pissed and cursed her. I made her heart broken.

About a week later, she tryed to ask this guy out, he said he would love to date her, and the next day he started dating her worst enemy.

Well, I had my revenge, but it came with a price. I was turned down by everyone I had the slightest interest in at the time. not only that, but I lost my connection with everyone, and always felt heartbroken.

I cannot prove to you thst this hgappened, but because of the success in my curse that I witnessed, I believe in magic.

Answer 6

I am a Catholic. I have studied other religions and Christianity. The Catholic Church is the only one that makes any sense to me. I believe because there is a longing in me that is only satisfied in the Church. I recommend Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's "Introduction to Christianity" for a complete and rational explaination. (Note: not for the faint hearted; he spends almost 100 pages defining the term "I believe")

Answer 7

It is not Blind faith, there is a 'knowing' of a knowing, that you know that you know without any doubts.

There is something that happens to those who are truely saved that a Non-believer simply just not has the ability to comprehend.

In Romans 12 :2 it talks about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, The word Transformed translates in the Greek to mean "Metamophosis"

Non-believers have no concept of this, to them, it will 'appear' as if we are 'brainwashed' because they simply do not have the ability to comprehend or understand the things that are of the Spirit of God (1st Cor 2:14)

You see..."For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." (1st Cor 2:11)

You see we have the knowing of a knowing of the truth that a Non-believer simply just cannot comprehend.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Answer 8

I believe because I have read the Bible often, all of it, not selected passages. I have put the Word to the test and found it true. I have a living relationship with the living God, and have seen His intervention in my own life and the lives of others time and time again. He has never forsaken me and He never will.

"Test the spirits and see if they are of God...retain that which is good."

I am not self-proclaiming, because it's not about me. It's about Him. We preach Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. He saved me, I didn't save myself. And not because I'm special, but because He chose to do so.

EDIT: You asked for *my* reasons, not yours. Nor did you stipulate they had to be reasons you found acceptable. Which is neither here nor there in terms of my personal reasons for believing, anyway. Accept, don't accept; these are they.

Answer 9

I don't self proclaim as I have a LACK of belief as opposed to a belief.Simply down to lack of logic and evidence to support a belief.

Answer 10

In order to answer your question, I need to give you a little of my own personal history.

I did NOT grow up in a "Christian" home. In fact, we were always taught that Jesus was a liar, possibly demented, but above all else, very dead.

In my early 20's, when I reached a very low point in my life, someone asked me if he could pray for me.

I thought to my self that if that's what "floats his boat" (so to speak), then why not? Besides, talking to a dead man really won't have any affect whatsoever!

Well, the thing is, Bryan prayed, and (lo and behold!) God actually answered!

I had (for lack of a better term) a "revelation" in which every cell in my body was literally screaming out that Jesus truly IS the Son of God!!!!

After a moment, when the shock of this startling news subsided somewhat, I was finally able to respond by saying "uh - oh - uh - ok."

The moment I said "ok" to this revalatory (?) news, then the power of God came down and flooded my life with relief from my addictions!

Not only was I cured from the desire, but even the effects were completely washed away, all in a moment of time (weeelllll, maybe 3 seconds). I literally FELT forgiveness and cleansing flowing through me. The desire for drugs, booze, cigs, et cetera, were swept out of my life, and I've never been the same since!

Since that time, of course, God has proven Himself time and time again, as I've prayed for very strange things and they happened just the way I prayed.

For instance, a woman we met had one leg about 1.5 inches shorter than the other, and as a result, she had very bad backaches and very painful headaches. We prayed, and without any kind of "chiropractic" manipulations, we watched as the one leg grew out to the same length as the other!

Another time, me and some friends were at Taco Bell, but before we could even leave the van to go inside, this guy came up to us and begged us for some money. Basically, he was hooked on $120.00 a day, and another guy took his money and he was starting to go through withdrawal symptoms. We asked if we could sit inside the van and just pray for him. He said ok, and we prayed, and in a manner of about 90 seconds, he went from doubled-over in agony, and slowly opened up (like one of those nature movies of a flower opening up in fast motion), and cried out in surprise, "I don't WANT any more! I don't NEED any more!"

I could go on with other examples, but suffice it to say that my faith is definitely NOT "blind", but based on what the Lord has already done in my life, and THROUGH me to others.

I trust that this is sufficient to answer your question. :-)

God bless you :)