A Question For Heathens?

Question

Is it okay to honor more than one pantheon?
After reading "Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe" by H. R. Ellis Davidson, it seemed valid (to me anyway) to honor both Celtic and Norse pantheons - being of primarily Celtic (Irish) and Teutonic cultural extraction.

Is there anywhere in the Eddas, sagas, or any historical records where it states that this is not allowed or is frowned upon? Please cite your sources if possible - Thanks!

Moiraes Fate - I had no idea the word "heathen" was considered derogatory. I just want to know if it is valid to consider oneself a Druid and an Asatruar.

LabGrrl - Yikes! It looks like I have lots more reading to do :)

Heathen Daughter - Are you saying that to call oneself an Asatruar, you must honor ONE pantheon and forsake the gods of the rest of your cultural heritage? I'm not trying to be nit-picky, argumentative or anything like that; this is an important question to me and I just want to make sure that I am understanding what you are saying :)

Thanks for clarifying H. D. I see that there is much to consider.

Answer 1

This isn't really JUST Heathens who feel this way. Recon's in general feel this way.
Part of it being, in order to truley honor thew and culture then you must honor said culture and worldview as a way of life. That does NOT include cherry picking gods.
It won't be in the Edda's or historical texts. Honestly it wouldn't have dawned on our ancestors to honor other pantheons. You have to remember that before Christianity came a long and preached universalism everyone had the "Your gods are your and our gods are ours" mentalitly. It wasn't that they didn't believe that those gods existed or even hesitated to honor them while in a visiting said cultures. But those weren't THIER gods, with in THIER culture.
We don't mind people borrowing our gods. The gods can take care of themselves. We do ask that one does not claim the title Asatru if one isn't. Asatru honors ONE pantheon, one culture, that of the Norse/Germanic. Say you have Norse leanings, say you are *shiver* Norse Wiccan. Say you are Eclectic. Say anything you want, but the title of Asatru is more then just a path to most of us. So by Heathens, and EVERY recon I have ever met from Celtic to Hellenistic, if you aren't willing to put in the WORK and the PRACTICE and the HONOR of those paths, then DON'T CLAIM IT.

edit: Oh sure Universal. You have utterly broken my heart now!!!! *sniff :P

edit: After a bit of thought, I will admit preaching strict pantheonic is probably some what "modern". It's an attempt to solidify and seperate the recon movement from other neo-pagan movements. There were plently who "merged" the celtic and Norse I'm sure as there were never big bold lines in the cultures. "Celtic starts HERE" was never on a sign I am betting but, many people are telling you this.
You can mix pantheons. No one is debating that. No one is saying it's wrong at all. What people ARE saying is that by claiming you are Asatru, that IS stating you will honor one pantheon. Asatru, as a PATH honors ONE pantheon. I am not quibbling the right to honor what ever god you choose in what ever manner you choose. What people WILL argue is your use of the title Asatru

Sigh Ok here is the deal. You are not forsaking anything. That's utterly dramatic. Asatru translates True to the Aesir. By calling yourself Asatru, you are implying to those who practice Asatru that you are following the Norse path. Asatru is a PATH. That path states you hold one pantheon. I am aslo celtic. I have GREAT respect for the Celtic gods. I don't "deny" them or "forsake" them in anyway. I honor my ancestors who honored them. All three of my children have CELTIC names, one of them a family name. BUT, I follow the HEATHEN path, therfore I honor the Germanic gods. If I wanted to honor the Celt gods I would, BUT I wouldn't call myself Asatru. Does that make sense?
And I will be brutally hoonest with you. Why not, people don't seem to be happy with me anyhow. LOL You can call yourself Asatru and Druid. There is a branch of Asatru that doesn't mind dual trad. But I AM telling you that a majority of the Heathen community will call you on it and will ridicule you with it. Regardless of history or edda's. That is how the community feels, like it or not.

Answer 2

1. Heathen is no more derogatory to the non-christian community than it is to call a Catholic a Christian. Christian was a derrogative term in the day and age it was defined.

2. I too agree that there is no set pantheon that cannot be mixed with others to fulfill the needs of the worshipper. I personally use Egyptian (Tamaran) and what is now called the Celtic pantheon. They complement each other very nicely, and chances are, they are all just different avatars of the same forms anyway.

3. In most polytheistic religious texts, there are very limited written accounts of exactly what the religious beliefs are; of course there are a few exceptions to the rule, but oral tradition is much more eminent. As for whether or not it is looked down upon, I do not believe it is anyone else's obligation to justify whether or not someone's belief system is okay. Spirituality is the responsibility of the individual to find self-truths.

Something to think about also with the Irish people and the Norse is they have been interacting with each other for so long (since atleast the 4th century) that the two belief systems from nonchristian areas are so intertwined that it would be difficult to tell what is truly Irish or Nordic at this time anyway.

Hope that helps, or atleast gives you something else to think about. And, at this point, we are all Neopagans anyway, meaning what we know is discernably different from the religion that was practiced then anyway. Same is true for christianity.

Answer 3

Anything in the lore that says it's not allowed or frowned upon? Not really...
But what we _do_ know (from the lore) that the first meetings of the Aesir and the Vanir weren't pleasant.

They didn't form a "single Norse pantheon" until after a war between the two families of Gods, and even that merger was by an exchange of hostages in order to cement the peace treaty.

As far as your personal spirituality is concerned, do what you need to do to honor the Gods that touch you. As far as religion goes, try not to mix-and-match... you'll find one that speaks true to your heart.

A side-note on the honoring of other Gods - we've been to and hosted sumbles where the Christian God, the Gods of the Cherokee people, creation, and 'the unknown' were toasted alongside the Aesir and the Vanir.

A relationship with a God, any God, is a personal matter - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Answer 4

Heathen is only derogatory to people who are unaware of the fact that Pagans whose primary resources are not in the Romance Languages tend to prefer the term Heathen.

Regardless. There is historical precident and documentation for honoring the Roman gods and the Celtic gods, and for honoring the Roman gods and the Germanic gods, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that one cannot honor the Celtic and Germanic gods simultaneously, as long as one is RESPECTFUL.

I wonder how those who'd preach a strict pantheonic polytheism would've dealt with, oh, the first hundred years of a place like Pen Zans or Londinium.

If you actually study ancient culture and the archeological record of Pre-Christian Europe, you'll find your travelers, your port dwellers and those who lived on borders regularly practiced more than one non-competing religion.

This is NOT syncreticism, the combining of religions in singular rites (a la Voudoun) but the practice of MULTIPLE RELIGIONS separately.

So, um, yeah, you'd honor Artio at Berne, and Jupiter at Rome and the rituals, languages and RELIGION would be different.

Historically, holding TWO or more religions is the NORM, not the exception...

Edit, FYI:And I know a Wiccan who is also an Asatruar, and he is ASSUREDLY NOT a "Norse Wiccan." It does not DISHONOR a god to worship another when it is said god's holy day, unless you play by Christianity's rules.

Edit: Let me add this,too. There is a BIG difference between Druid and Celtic Reconstructionism, the requirements for being a Druid are a lot more than just believing in a religion.
I'd say you can be a CR and an Asatruar, but not a Druid, unless you met ALL the requirements for the title under CR, including the whole priest-caste concept.

Edit, to the guy below: There is no fence-sitting about it, dear. Traditionally Wiccans ARE POLYTHEISTS, not monotheists, or as you call them soft polytheists. My gods are not aspects, archetypes, etc. It seems to me your reasoning is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of Wicca, PERIOD.

Answer 5

Enh...

Asatru, at least, isn't really a "dabbler" thing. And a LOT of times, the Gods don't play well together.
I don't go to Wiccan rites, anymore (my choice), because the energies I bring to the fire are so completely different to the ones the Wiccans bring, that it causes some palpable... almost physical tension even though I'm simply following the ritual.

I can only imagine the same could be said of Druid rituals.

I'm not terribly popular with eclectics, but I'm very much a "make up your mind" type, when it comes to honoring the Gods.
I'm not in any way insulted by people honoring Odin and Cernunnos, I just don't think it's a good idea for the reasons listed above.
Don't take this as prejudice or elitism, because it really isn't... Asatru isn't for everyone... Druidry isn't for me, I'm not right for it.
I hope you can see what I mean.

EDIT: Pay no heed to Moiraes Fate. Many many Asatruar call themselves Heathen instead of associating themselves with the word Pagan. Moiraes Fate is either uneducated or stupid.
Either way, don't heed its admonishment.

Answer 6

Just an FYI for all the folks in a fit over the word "Heathen": Pagan and Heathen are the same word in different languages; it's like the Americans who say that Muslims worship a different God than the Christians and Jews because they call Him Allah. Allah means God. Pagos and Heather both respectively refer to "the boonies" in their languages. Both the terms Pagan and Heathen refer to people living outside the city or town.

And yes, in Pagan religions they very often borrow gods and goddesses from each other. As an example: the Romans pretty much changed the name of the Greek gods and added a few. Lots of Romans got involved in the "mystery" cults of the Middle East, i.e. Mithra (renamed Dionysus or Bacchus)and Ishtar (Easter or Oster in Europe). The British had a god called Woden or Weden (whence we get Wednesday) that had his roots in the mythological hero Odin of Scandinavia. The best example of taking in gods from other pantheons is Hinduism. The Aryans brought their Vedic gods with them to the Indian subcontinent and absorbed Shiva (and made her a man), Amida (and made her a man), and all the other gods of the cults of the Indus Valley. After the Buddhists started venerating Siddhartha Gautama, the Hindus absorbed the Buddha as an avatar of the godhead. Some Hindus even claim that Jesus of Nazareth was such an avatar.

Answer 7

From the little research I've read, Heathens are trying to reconstruct the old religion. The Germanic peoples religious beliefs (Heathenism now) were to follow the "ways of the fathers" meaning of their tribe. The Germans/Norse people worshiped the Germanic/Norse gods - simple as that. They may have recognized Celtic and other religions as valid - for those people, but they themselves worshiped the Germanic pantheon. So..... re-constructionists of the old ways may look down upon mixing and matching of pantheons as Wiccans sometimes do.

I'm sure someone else on this board will be able to give you a better explanation than I.

Answer 8

"Is it okay to honor more than one pantheon?"

Sure.....just do not go claiming to be a follower of each pantheon you are worshipping. If you are "searching" for a path, and attend different groups gatherings, go for it. If you are alone, and are calling 26 different deities from 16 different pantheons they are going to be stacked up like jets landing at LaGuardia and things are gonna get messy.

"After reading "Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe" by H. R. Ellis Davidson, it seemed valid (to me anyway) to honor both Celtic and Norse pantheons - being of primarily Celtic (Irish) and Teutonic cultural extraction."

There is nothing that says you cannot either. if you do so, do it seperately, and do not do it under the guise that "I am gonna be a druid today and an asatruar tomorrow.' You are either one OR the other. This is not "Ming Wa's all you can worship buffet."

"Is there anywhere in the Eddas, sagas, or any historical records where it states that this is not allowed or is frowned upon? Please cite your sources if possible - Thanks!"

You will not find it in any of those, for it isn't addressed. The Norse were famous for absorbing other cultures beliefs into their own, including kristijanity, the fact that what we have was written down well AFTER the fact and most often by learned kristjans, it has to be taken with a grain of salt for the most part. You will however find that since most of the sagas take place in their home lands, very little reference to worshipping other pantheons gods exists. Read them for yourself, you'll see. When they raided ireland,england and any other non scandanavian country, who did they praise? THEIR gods, they MAY have worshipped them, but as far as i know, the records are lost.

Moiraes Fate: idiot....plain and simple. Asatruar go between the two and use it to differentiate ourselves from other pagans. Knowledge is your friend, try calling him sometime to see how he has been.


Labgrrl:"And I know a Wiccan who is also an Asatruar, and he is ASSUREDLY NOT a "Norse Wiccan."

Then in all honesty......wtf is he? IMO, stop sitting on the goddamm fence and pick a side. Does he view the gods as multi-faceted aspects of the goddess like most wiccans? If so, how does he explain to asatruar, who BTW, are 99% of the time strict hard polytheists? My gods are individuals, not some "representation" of some "one energy" or something and I do not take kindly to the uninformed or ignorant stating otherwise. I have wiccan friends who attend blót with us and they are wiccan, not asatruar, they do not say they are asatruar, nor do they CONSIDER themselves asatruar. They honor our gods just like theirs and are present as part of the greater community.

"It does not DISHONOR a god to worship another when it is said god's holy day, unless you play by Christianity's rules."

Agreed, but again....do not "say' you are a druid tha day and the next "say' you are asatruar. I for one do not attend anything other than asatru events, why? I have no interest in anything else. If someone comes to one of our blóts however, and states things less than correct, we make sure we tell them what is correct.

"I'd say you can be a CR and an Asatruar, but not a Druid, unless you met ALL the requirements for the title under CR."

IMO, you can't, your either one or the other. Your talking two different styles, with two different sets of going about things. it's like saying your a catholic and a baptist.

EDIT: To clarify......you can honor or worship anyone you damm well please. It is what you are CALLING yourself, it is BEING that is a whole different ballgame.

EDIT2:"Edit, to the guy below: There is no fence-sitting about it, dear. Traditionally Wiccans ARE POLYTHEISTS, not monotheists, or as you call them soft polytheists. My gods are not aspects, archetypes, etc. It seems to me your reasoning is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of Wicca, PERIOD."

I call them as I see them. And your claim that "Traditionally Wiccans ARE POLYTHEISTS, not monotheists, or as you call them soft polytheists" does not hold true or I would not have said it. Try not smacking someone who not only says Freya and Frigga are the same, but that they are also just an "aspect' of the "mother goddess" or that my gods are manifestations of a greater entity. "Traditionally" wicca has been around for only 60 or so years.........and your fundamental lack of understanding on what it MEANS to BE asatruar is just reasonable enough.

Answer 9

Ah, another person in my situation, welcome! Well, okay, near as I can tell, it's really Cornish, not Irish, but don't tell the other CRs. ;)

It's certainly possible to honor two pantheons, but it takes a lot more work, both in research, and in building relationships. I still consider myself CR, but I've interacted with Odin a few times, but, let's face it, when a god takes the time to say something to you, you've got to be polite in response.

As LabGrrl said, syncretism is a bit more common with the Romans, but there's a number of folks who hang out on that border area between Celt and Norse. If nothing else, our cousins are friendly and throw good parties, so.... :D

Answer 10

When I first studied Druidism, one of the teachers was asked something similar. He explained that ALL spiritual paths MUST grow or they will die.

If we looked at say the Northern Germany area at hmmm 700BCE, we would see a spiritual/religious system somewhat set in place. A hundred years or so later that same area and peoples belief system GREW into what it had become at that point and so on. New gods may have entered the picture and others gone. Stories may have been added and others less important....

My old teacher also once said, "We are going to do religion like they did in the old days, make it up as we go!"

Peace and Bright Blessings
Soma

Answer 11

I agree with Heathen Daughter on this one. You need to stick with one pantheon. Or forget the whole thing and call yourself an Eclectic Pagan. Regardless, you need to follow your heart.
Also, remember that you are not denying part of your heritage by sticking with only one pantheon.