Christians: This is a question about God's sovereignty ---?

Question

I am not trying to preach, I assure you. But I'm just curious about this. If you think that God is in control of / plans / ordains all things, does He do that for all things *except* for who comes to Christ? Without believing in open theism, which is flat out against scripture, in my opinion, how does one get around the doctrine of election (not to mention the fact that the Bible mentions it, well, kind of a lot?)

Also, God did choose Israel. If He does that with nations, is that different than how He structures His relationship with individuals? Just curious as to what you all think.

Thanks!

Answer 1

Yes, I believe that God chooses us, because the Bible says so. And I see evidence of that. I think God puts people and situations in the lives of those He chose so they will hear the Gospel. Why would you want to get around the doctrine of election? I think when God comes to us, we now have the ability to say Yes to Him, whereas formerly all we could do is say No. But we still have the ability to reject Him. So it's not a cast in stone thing, but like one person said, God DOES see the outcome because He is outside the time line. God gave us free will. But our will is corrupted by sin until He enables us to exercise it fully. God doesn't choose people to be damned. He chooses only those whom He will call. Theoretically, the others can be saved if they do not sin. But in practice, it doesn't work out that way.

God exercises two kinds of sovereignty. There is His absolute sovereignty, when He says something, and it happens. And there is His permissive sovereignty when He lets us exercise our free will and take the consequences. Without the consequences, our free will means nothing. We have to be able to act on the world and have an effect. People who go to hell choose hell. They hate God, and would not be happy in His presence. God gave us free will because He wants our love. In order for our love to have meaning, we must have the ability to hate as well.

Someone once described it this way: At the gates of heaven, when you are coming in, there is a sign that says, "whosoever will" but when you go in and look back, you see a sign that says, "chosen from the foundation of the world."

Answer 2

Please forgive me for recycling a previous answer (of my own, I assure you), to a totally different question involving free will and predestination. I just felt that it might also fit here (and, I'm not sure how to put in those links to another question within my own answer, as I've seen so many people do).

We live in time, which has a definite beginning and a definite end. In other words, we live on a line. God is on the eternal plane, totally outside of time, and thus can see everything that happens from one end of the line to the other. It's not that God "makes" us make certain decisions with our free will; rather, He knows what decisions we will make before we make them. He does not "determine" what we will do, He knows what we will do -- two very different things.

This is really a better discussion question, worthy of better answers than you will more than likely get from a few people.
Have a great night!

Answer 3

Well, you ask some loaded questions!! lol There are so many things that we aren't capable of understanding and it all just comes down to trusting God and understanding that we'll never understand it all (not in this life, anyway). I'm not trying to insult anyone by any means, but here's a link if you're unsure about what the "doctrine of election" is: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW02.htm

Very interesting article and very interesting question! Keep em' coming!

Answer 4

Hi kl, That's an extremely interesting question!
I wish you had provided specific instances so that we could compare Scripture with Scripture. However, we must be careful not to try to contain GOD in the little box of our human understanding!God is consistent but He is not predictable!
As Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent God is eternal and maintains the order of the Universe He created. Where did He come from? We don't know, neither are we told because we probably couldn't understand it anyway.
When we look at the chaos that our planet is descending into it is hard to imagine that He is in control, yet we do have evidence of this in Scripture.
According to Biblical chronology there was only a period of some 1600 years before man became so degenerate that God was forced to intervene. Yet several thousand years after that event the human race has still not quite reached the same general level of depravity that caused Him to act as recorded in Genesis 7.
I think that this can be explained by understanding Revelation 7:1. "After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree."
The symbolism contained in this verse where winds = strife; earth = those who dwell on the earth cf those who are not godly; on the sea = people generally; or on any tree = those who have accepted God.
In other words God has restrained the forces of evil and they have not been allowed to have full rein as they had in the ante-deluvian world.
In the Book of Revelation John foresees a time when these forces will be unleashed and bring the world to its final climax culminating in the return of Jesus as the conquering King.
There are further clues in Rev.12:7 where John records that there was war in heaven and that the outcome of that conflict caused a large number of angels to be cast to the earth.
Throughout human history God has maintained a remnant who were faithful to Him and worshiped Him as the one true God.
For example Noah and his family were chosen because they were the only people who had any degree of righteousness. They demonstrated in their lives an affiliation with God. Similarly, Abraham who maintained an ongoing relationship with God even though he lived in the heathen land of the Chaldees.
God's covenant with Abraham tied Him to the salvation of the human race and the knowledge of that covenant was first trusted to Abraham's descendants, the Children of Israel.
The Israelites failed in that the religious leaders of the day failed to recognise the Messiah, Jesus, when He came upon the scene. God again intervenes to ensure the salvation of the human race through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
The effects of sin on this planet are being watched throughout the universe and the final battle of the cosmic war will be fought here between the armies of Gog and Magog (The unbelievers led by Satan and his angels) and Christ and His faithful followers redeemed from the earth.
It is interesting to note that Christ's redeemed are safely inside the New Jerusalem. The battle is the LORD's. "Vengeance is Mine!"says the Lord.
The wicked are destroyed, the old earth is destroyed and a New Earth created that becomes God's dwelling place.
It seems that God has a timetable that He alone knows.
Strangely it is God who is on trial before the universe, not the inhabitants of the earth!
As people we are the only creatures on this planet that have the power of choice and are able to reason and know right from wrong.
God repects that because as a God of love, love cannot be expressed by coercion or force. Love can only be expressed by determination of the mind and be willing to return the affection in kind.
Tragically our minds have been so corrupted by sin that we fail to have a clear understanding of God's purpose for us and the part we play in this drama that is unfolding on planet earth.
The scene is set for the final act and the curtain is about to rise as the demonic powers are unleashed in their final orgy of destruction.
I hope that this goes some way in answering your question.
God Bless,
H'chat.

Answer 5

When Jesus was here on earth, He did not do miracles for unbelievers. He loves us equally but His calling is the same for everyone. Chosen ones are the ones who follow His lead.

God promised Jesus to Israel, and He kept His promise. So in that matter Israel is the chose one. He offer Hid personal relationship for all of us, but many of us choose to follow religion, traditions or false teachings instead.

Answer 6

Those who are "chosen" are those who submit themselves to the Spirit of God and become subjects to His authority and power. Many are called indeed but few are willing. There is much to explain to answer your question as to how God directs us and even turns our mistakes into successes. That's what He does for those who follow Christ, the Redeemer.

Answer 7

God knows everything that will happen.
We have to walk this out to be examples
and a witness for the sake of satan, his angels
and the people who will not follow God.

Ephesians 3:9

Answer 8

God’s absolute sovereignty is evidenced throughout the scripture. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that "He is the most high doing according to His will in heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him, 'What doest thou?' " (Dan. 4:35). "He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11), not after the will of His creatures.

God foreordains everything which comes to pass. His sovereign rule extends throughout the entire Universe and is over every creature. "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things" (Rom. 11:36). God initiates all things, regulates all things, and all things are working unto His eternal glory. "There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him" (1 Cor. 8:6). Surely, if anything could be ascribed to chance it is the drawing of lots, and yet the Word of God expressly declares, "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" (Prov. 16:33).

God's sovereignty should lead us to deeper humility. God's sovereignty in salvation should lead us to a deeper assurance. Our assurance does not lie in what we are; it lies in what God has done in His plan of salvation to secure us to Himself. Understanding the sovereignty of God in salvation also leads us to worship. We may praise God in every situation. We may bless God; that is literally to speak well of Him and find loving Him to be our greatest delight and serving Him to be the most satisfying thing in the world.

Here is a link discussing God's sovereignty in detail:
http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/

Answer 9

I have been wrestling with that one for two years, it's a classic Balanced Calvanism vs. Hyper-Calvinism debate.

I hate to answer with a link, but this one helped me clarify a few things. It's not a very long read, and it is pretty good:

http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/hypercalvinism.htm

That's a huge question.

Answer 10

God Word says that He desires that no one should perishes. I believe that God has ordained that everyone has an opportunity for salvation, but unfortunately, our free will over rides His plans and His desires.