Is predestination still taught as a viable precept in your denomination? Is it still taught that only a very few people -- 144,000? I forget the exact number -- will be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?
If this is a stupid question, please excuse my ignorance. This is information I got from a presbyterian teacher 11 yrs ago, and can't find anything to discount his claim on the internet.
2007-10-20 12:02:34 · 9 answers · asked by Acorn 7 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Parkit: Thanks for that information. I didn't know that the Jehovah's Witnesses also had that doctrine. (My knowledge of JWs is even scanter than my knowledge of Presbyterians, I'm afraid.)
2007-10-20 12:10:34 · update #1
Sage: Please do!
2007-10-21 06:16:14 · update #2
I think that you mixed up the clear teaching of the Bible about predestination (Calvinism) and teaching of JW's that is false.
There will be more than 144,000 people in heaven. If you would read the passage in Revelation 7:4-8, you would see that this means only Jews saved during the tribulation time.
Next verse (Revelation 7:9) tells you about uncounted multitudes of those saved in Heaven from "every tribe, people and nation".
Bible is clear that all those who come to Jesus will be in heaven (human responsibility), but also that nobody that God the Father doesn't draw to Jesus will come to him (predestination). But, instead of looking at God as a mean person who determines who will go to hell and who will not, we should look at it biblically:
1) Nobody wants to come to Jesus on their own (at least not in the way Jesus calls people to come and surrender their all, that is counting the cost)
2) Everybody who comes to Jesus will be saved
3) God's election is actually a great comfort for believers, since nobody can snatch them from Jesus' hands (John 10; Romans 8:28 ff)
We have to be balanced when reading the Bible, to see that men have their free will, but that free will only takes them away from God (Romans 3). When God comes into picture by electing us, He breakes our free will - but only to our good! He never breaks our free will to force us to do anything bad (James 1:13) that would lead to hell!
I hope this helps!
2007-10-21 19:58:47 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
I'm a Calvinist, but not a Presbyterian. I'm afraid your knowledge of Calvinism is too sketchy. I have never heard any doctrine of 144,000 literal people in heaven except from Jehovah's Witnesses and possibly some other fringe groups like the Worldwide Church of God in the old days before they embraced orthodoxy. The 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 1000: 12 being the number of perfection, and 1000 being symbolic of a very large number.
2007-10-20 19:47:15 · answer #2 · answered by Gary B 5 · 0⤊ 0⤋
The idea that 144,000 people get into heaven strikes me as bizarre. Revelation is the most misinterpreted book of the Bible, precisely because it is "revelation" and is highly metaphorical. When we read in the gospels that Christ called Lazarus out of the tomb and the dead man rose and came out covered in bandages, there is no metaphor expressed here. There is no room for interpretation. This is an event reported with all the dryness and clarity of an NBC news account. We cannot read Revelation in the same way.
The problem of predestination is a thorny one. I have read several theological treatments of the issue, but it always boils down to the same thing. We are trying to understand the infinite non-temporal mind of God with the finite, time-enslaved, uncertain mind of a human being. It is a fruitless endeavour. Much better to focus on how I can best serve God today, how I can love my neighbour, fight my sinfulness, devote time to prayer and be as holy a person as I know how. Tomorrow is another day. Eternity is beyond my present understanding.
2007-10-20 19:33:41 · answer #3 · answered by morkie 4 · 0⤊ 0⤋
Never heard that, but the JW's believe the have the edge on being the 144,000.
Actually, they are those who will pass through the great tribulation when Satan rules this planet with the Abomination of Desolation. They will be among a multitude as many as the sands of the seashore who worship before God.
That Abomination is identified in a Bible code. See; http://abiblecode.tripod.com
Shalom, peace in Jesus, Ben Yeshua
2007-10-20 19:13:47 · answer #4 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
I know this is politically incorrect, but I've always thought of Presbyterianism as the religion of the rich.
I believe pre-destination is counter-social justice. I'll even go way out on a limb and say that pre-destination is not a Christ-like concept. I, personally, believe that any theology that contains ideas of pre-destination is seriously flawed.
With regards and respects
2007-10-20 22:31:29 · answer #5 · answered by Green is my Favorite Color 4 · 0⤊ 0⤋
The 144,000 Christians happen after the rapture. These are from the twelve tribes of Israel and they preach to the people left behind. But you are right about there being few who will go to Heaven. The way to hell is a seven lane highway but path to Heaven is the width of one man's shoulders. Can you name the man?
2007-10-20 19:56:48 · answer #6 · answered by Coop 366 7 · 0⤊ 1⤋
Oh bless your heart! You just gave me a great Monday conversation with the Presbyterian Minister I work with......I am Methodist and we go heads up on a regular basis...I've got to say on some subjects I question my views he has some good points....After I get his view I will personally email you what he tells me....
2007-10-20 19:24:41 · answer #7 · answered by Sage 6 · 0⤊ 0⤋
This nonsense make God sound like judgmental punishing Jerk doesn't it.
love and blessings Don
2007-10-20 19:06:09 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
this is J.W's teaching,it is also untrue .all who come to Jesus will go to heaven.
2007-10-20 19:08:28 · answer #9 · answered by parkituse j 5 · 0⤊ 0⤋