Please resist the temptation to answer, 'No, it makes him a trumpet'. This question is about the Jehovah's Witnesses interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16, as 'proving' that Christ is actually the created archangel, Michael. I'm concerned about the lack of consistency they show, taking a few words out of one sentence and saying this is literal, but the following words are said to be symbolic. Surely if you treat the Bible this way, you can make it say anything you want it to say?
2007-10-20 01:33:46 · 14 answers · asked by Anonymous in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Sorry if my Q was not clear enough to some of you. I'm hoping JWs will realise their doctrine of Jesus being the Archangel cannot use 1 Thess. as 'proof'. If Trinitarians were as fast and loose in their Bible interpretations as the JWs, they would claim that Jesus must be God because this verse says he has the trumpet of God! Of course, they don't! It would be disgraceful to treat the Bible that way! Symbolism must always be clearly identified as such and not taken literally, otherwise you'll 'make' the Bible say anything you want it to say.
I do NOT believe Jesus was created by God, but is the Word, who was with God in the beginning and who is God. Hebrews chapter 1 says ALL God's angels worship Christ (which, in itself, proves Christ cannot be an angel). But the Wt.Soc has to skew the word for worship and renders it 'obeisance' in their notorious New World Translation.
2007-10-22 02:13:45 · update #1
What makes Jesus part of the Trinity is the fact that He and the Father are One. Jesus himself says so.
Having the trumpet doesn't make him God; being of the same essence and nature, does.
Michael is used as a "type" or symbol of Christ, they are not interchangeable. Just as the lamb that Abraham sacrificed in place of Isaac was a "type" of Christ's atonement on the Cross--but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that the lamb WAS Jesus.
In Revelations, the Lamb of God is another *symbol* of Jesus...it still doesn't mean that Jesus is or was a real, wooly lamb.
Don't engage with JWs or anyone else who deal in "proof texting" of this type. As Shakespeare says, even the devil can quote Scriptures for his own purposes, and has, indeed--look at the temptations of Jesus when he was in the desert for 40 days. What's Satan's tag line? "It is written!" Jesus however knew the *spirit* as well as the Word.
2007-10-20 07:23:37 · answer #1 · answered by anna 7 · 2⤊ 3⤋
The voice expressing this commanding call (1 Thessalonians 4:16, ) be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation "archangel" applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to "an archangel's voice" would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Just going back to the book of Daniel 10 and 12, Michael's standing up (“shall arise”) was to be associated with "a time of trouble, such as never has been since then" (Dan. 12:1) In Daniel's prophecy, “shall arise up” frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Dan. 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21)
This lends to the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah's appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har-Magedon.-Re 11:15; 16:14-16.
2007-10-20 10:51:17 · answer #2 · answered by keiichi 6 · 3⤊ 0⤋
Oh, you are naughty! But I like it.
Jehovah's Witnesses did not always believe that Jesus was Michael the archangel. When they dreamed this up, it was on the scantiest of Biblical references. The only named archangel in the Bible is Michael. In Daniel 12 he is referred to as the great prince who protects Israel. Interestingly, in Hebrews 1 it says that Christ is superior to the angels and in verse 6 that God's angels worship him. Which begs the question, if the angels worship Christ, why don't they? Could it be because they've totally and utterly missed the point of Christ's divinity? Because of this, they must demote him.
And yes, the Witnesses are adept at picking an odd verse her, another one there and claiming one is literal whilst the other is symbolic. Like the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation - the number 144,000 is taken to be literal whilst everything else is symbolic. All to fit in with their theology.
2007-10-20 14:34:18 · answer #3 · answered by Anonymous · 4⤊ 2⤋
The thing I like about the JW's is their reminder that God is revealed to us by names such as Jehovah and not minor dieties such as allah the destroyer of Lebenon, Afganistan, Iraq, the twin towers etc.
This being said, the JW's do need prayer, bless um!
2007-10-20 19:13:05 · answer #4 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
Having the voice,or a voice like the archangel doesn't make Him the archangel. And certainly. possessing God's trumpet doesn't make Him God!
However, He is God as part of the Trinity, in the beginning, now, and forever more!
Yes, you can make the Bible say anything you want.
2007-10-20 08:57:41 · answer #5 · answered by edward_lmb 4 · 2⤊ 3⤋
WHAT IS THE SHORT TIME AFTER SATAN IS CAST DOWN?
Rev.9:1-5 [ 5x 30 = ] 150, the pit is open for Satan, GOD'S SEALED ARE THERE, is it 150 years [ Rev.9:12-16; 16:12-16 ]?
WHO IS MICHAEL OR DOES IT MATTER HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE?
Michael of Jude 9 [ helper of Promised Land heirs for 40 years ]; in Dan. 10:13,21; Dan.12:1-13 [ the summed up], time of the end, Michael there from 2500, and at Rev:3,4,6-11,12; Michael has Satan and 1/3 angels cast down out of heaven, 2520, Satan have a short time in the time of the end or the end time, is it 150.
Jesus has been sitting at the right hand of God until his enemies, Satan and the unholy angels are cast down underfoot Matt.22:42-44; the prophecy of David, Acts 2:27-35; Heb.1:1-13; this is fulfilled ]; Now a place is prepared for the raised up at the last day to have Satan under their feet John 6:39,40,44; John 14:3; Rom.16:20 [ Satan to be under their feet ]; Michael is there to the last 1Thes.4:15-17; the caught up to be with Jesus Heb.12:22-24; Gal.4:26; Rev.3:12; Mark 13:27; 1Thes.4:15-17;
DOES DANIEL AGREE WITH TIME OF THE END PROPHECY?
Dan.12:1- 13;
Dan.12:1-7 [2500 ] Dan.12:8-10 [2520 ], 11 [2x 1290 = ] 2580, 12 [ 2x 1335 = ] 2670 years after Babylon World Empire #3 ended kings, NO KING UNTIL JESUS AT HIS SECOND COMING 2670 less 2520 is 150 years? and [as Rev.9:1-5 x 30 = 150 years ? ]; IF PROPHECY, WILL AGREE WITH WORLD HISTORY? 2520 + 93 Years is 2613, 1914 + 93 years is 2007.
Dan.12: [ 2x 1335 = 2670 less 2520 is 150 less 93 is 57 ];
ALL PROPHECY IS WORTH EXAMINATION AND CONSIDERATION?
2007 after Christ in Rome world Empire #6, is 2613 after Babylon world Empire #3 ended Judah kings, 1914, 93 years after WW1, 1945, 62 years after WW2, 1974, 33 years after Vietnam conflict, 1991, 16 years Euphrates conflict continues Rev.9:12-16 [ 1611 + 391 is 2002, Rev.16:12-16 ];
REVELATIONS
Rev.1:1 [ The Revelations is given to Jesus by God, to show to his servants things that must shortly come to pass and he sent and signified it by his angel [ is Jesus his own angel ? ], to John on Patmos in Rome World Empire #6, Rev.17:10-14; #6, #7, 8th is of the #7 and 8th ends to the rule of Christ Jesus kingdom AFTER SATAN'S SHORT TIME DOWN ];
2007-10-20 10:12:20 · answer #6 · answered by jeni 7 · 0⤊ 2⤋
Hi, Sasi.
Yes, you are right. People can twist the bible and make it mean anything they want.
Our job as believers is to approach it honestly, openly, with a teachable spirit.
There certainly are things in it that are meant to be taken literally. There are many other things in it that are meant to be taken symbolically.
We need God's wisdom, don't we?
god bless
2007-10-20 08:50:37 · answer #7 · answered by happy pilgrim 6 · 4⤊ 1⤋
Jesus was not a archangel he was begotten by Mary, begotten means beginning. Jesus had to come down the line of David his father,begotten , he could not pre exist himself as a angel. They have it all wrong. Matter of fact where is 1914, by the JW's we are all suppose to be dead.
2007-10-20 08:47:00 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 3⤋
Trinity believers think he is God. but why would he pray to himself. He said father let this cup pass from me. Yes people use the bible to push thier own agenda. They take a verse out of context then twist it around to mean whatever they want.
When its just a collection of stories put together to control the masses. But as a whole it makes for some wild reading sex war
ufo sightings all kinds of crazy things.
2007-10-20 08:53:07 · answer #9 · answered by ravingnative 3 · 1⤊ 4⤋
But Jesus is God. I don't follow your question at all but Jesus is God.
2007-10-20 11:42:46 · answer #10 · answered by Dotty 4 · 1⤊ 2⤋