Daily Dog Question #15 10/19/07?

Question

This isn't about our dogs exactly but it's a rather topical question. And I'm not entering into the Ellen stuff so don't think that's where I'm going.

Given some of the recent events, how many of you have signed a contract for your current or past dog? It could be an adoption contract, a spay/neuter contract, a co-ownership contract? Or maybe you are on the other side, perhaps you are a breeder. Do you have a contract? What does it entail?

I'm not asking us to debate the recent events of Ellen, but I'm curious, who has signed a contract or who requires one. And if so, what is it? If not, why not?

What do you think of your contract? Do you plan to abide by it or do you think that you've had your dog for 6 years, it's no big deal?

Interesting debate huh?

Talk among yourselves and I'll tell a story in the additional details later since I'm not allowed to answer my own question.... and as you know, this is most certainly not a poll. =)

Beagle Update: still on the loose (as of Friday morning - we are brining in a trap.) I have never been so frustrated by a dog in my life.

I know a "person" with 5 dogs. She has 2 contracts on her dogs.

The one from a breeder that the dog will be returned to the breeder should she no longer want it. That dog also had to be spayed.

She has 2 from a Lab rescue. Both of those dogs have to be returned to that lab rescue should she no longer want them.

Her katrina dog is her personal rescue and is not affiliated with any organization so she can sell him or give him away to anyone she chooses . If he pulls another baseboard off the wall, She may post him here wit a picture for someone. She knows this group has many responsible dog lovers. He will come with a contract.

The 14 yo was a free to a good home dog and was in the days before people thought up contracts for dogs.

Answer 1

Over my lifetime, I have signed several--maybe 6-7 or more of the contracts. They actually mean nothing in litigation. Dogs are property. The contracts are civil contracts. Once money changes hands --(I always try to use a cc to be safe) the dog is legally mine. I guess because I actually understand the civil law a bit more, I don't get intimidated by them. The only "damages" ever awarded in a civil contract is for the value of the property (dog) which has already been paid for. They could get nothing more from me no matter what I choose to do or not do with the dog. The whole contract thing is actually worthless in the legal sense in this state. It just makes people feel like they have more power than they really do.

I just signed one a few weeks ago for a rescue. I broke it almost immediately by going to my own vet not theirs. Does that bother me? No. I'm glad I did because my vet was probably more honest than theirs would have been about things.

The question-- how many have I broken? Probably most of them in one way or another. I really don't know because I just hadn't considered it. I do remember a rescue dog that bit. I did not return it to the rescue. I had him put to sleep. He was not safe to be in the general public, and that is the more responsible thing to do. They would have just carted him back out to the public for another quick dollar which is morally wrong.

I don't remember signing a breeder's contract about spay/neuter. Possibly I have, but don't know for sure. I did buy a few AKC dogs with the limited registrations. I just dual register them with another club and breed them anyway. But I don't know if altering was in the breeder's contracts? It certainly wouldn't bother me if it were, but I honestly don't know.

It is strange to me that people cannot fathom the idea of dogs legally being property. These are civil contracts. Once you buy the dog, it is yours. Power and possession change hands in exchange for cash. You can't sell a dog, obtain a profit and then retain power over the product. It is simply not legal. You will never win in a court case over this issue-- at least in this state.

I don't use the contracts when I sell a puppy either. I know they are not morally or legally "right". I do try to encourage and explain to people why some puppies should never be bred if that is the case. But if I hand over the puppy (property) it is theirs to do with as they see fit. I am mature enough to know that, and not power hungry. I usually just give away puppies that aren't "perfect" in some way. If I get a dog from a "rescue" type situation that has puppies, I always try to give them away or only charge enough to pay for their shots and vet appts-- about $20-25. Many abandoned dogs are simply pregnant dogs that the owners just don't want to deal with. If they come in to the vets as a release, one of us will keep them until they can be found a home. I always promise to take back a puppy if it doesn't work out for them. I have never had anyone complain that a puppy was unwell, but I would take it back and refund if they did.

And legally I know, that I would have no right to seize a dog if it is paid for. That would be corrupt and immoral. It really baffles me why people don't see that. Don't they understand the 4th Amendment? A civil contract certainly does not over ride the Constitution. You are fooling yourselves if you actually believe it does. Unless somebody actually has a court order after litigation, they cannot take any property without the owner's consent. That's why repossession people steal cars at night and sometimes end up in jail for doing so. The contracts are worthless unless you can bully the person into giving you the property. And I am not a bully. Nor would I be bullied by another person over a matter like this.

I think the general public is really not knowledgeable about these things. And it is too bad because they are being taken advantage of by bullies merely waiving invalid contracts.
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Kristin- Hi. You really don't have a right to take property like that. Be very careful if you try. Unless you really "bluff" the person well and scare them into giving you the dog, you could be arrested and end up in jail.

I know a lawyer very well who regularly advises his clients to file criminal complaints against repo people. Civil law and criminal law are two very different things. Breaching the peace, theft, trespassing, breaking and entering, etc are all criminal acts. Sometimes extortion could be added to that list if they try to physically intimidate a person. Dogs are property. They cannot be taken against the owner's permission no matter what a civil contract says. Your only recourse is to sue for damages.

People don't have to like that. They can complain, argue or whine about it. But it is the truth. The dog is property. And it has a limited monetary value.

Answer 2

I did sign a purchase contract for my purebred. It does contain the standard return clause. It also stated that the dog would not be used for breeding unless he was first shown to Championship. He was sold to me as show-quality (with option to neuter at buyer's discretion).

I told the breeder up front that I didn't have much interest in showing, and she said that was fine. She was more interested in finding good homes. The dog grew slightly tall for his breed, and has some white where he shouldn't (although he didn't as a pup), so I probably took the right one!

My second dog is a rescue from the pound. No contract of any kind. Twenty bucks and out the door.

Answer 3

I have a none breeding dog since my dog comes from a long line of Champions. He is a pet so I didn't even think about not signing it because I had/have no intentions on having puppies. He is now nutered, which was by choice, it wasn't in the contract. Also, I signed a contract as well if I wanted to get rid of him I would first see if the breeder wanted him, and they would take him back or we would both choose a home for him.

Answer 4

I am adopting a pug from Pug Lovers Rescue and yes, I have to sign a contract saying that if it doesn't work out, then I have to return the dog to the organization, which makes perfect sense to me. I think mostly they are afraid people will take the dogs to shelters that will most likely put them down. Whereas the rescue organization is no-kill.
My first dog, I bought from a breeder and did not have to sign a contract with, but she was a little fishy. In hindsight, I would never get another dog in that way again.

Answer 5

I signed a contract for Josie. Since she has a mis-mark on her ear so she was placed as pet/competition dog only; my contract said she needed to be spayed. My contract also said (as all breeders worth anything say in their contract) that if I ever should no longer want her, she must be returned to the breeder.

I would never buy a dog that the breeder didn't require a contract of some sort.

EDIT:
tj,
Many show-prospect dogs are sold on "co-ownership". The contract sometimes says you have to show the dog at least a certain number of times per year. Also, the contract for show-prospect usually says you can't use the dog for breeding until it has either a certain number of points from 'major wins' or it has earned it's championship. Show-breeders have a reputation to protect.

Answer 6

The thing about dogs is they can get scared or excited over something an owner wouldn't anticipate. A firecracker could go off and the dog could go running, a firetruck could drive by and scare the dog, or a bunny or a squirell, or a cat could be too big of a temptation and the dog could run off chasing the animal. To be safe I think all animals should be on a leash when out on a walk. I wouldn't say owners that don't leash their dogs are irresponsible as those are some of the best behaved dogs I have seen. However, I think it is best to have a leash just in case something unanticipated occurs. Also I think it could result in a dangerous situation even if it doesn't happen very often.

Answer 7

I have three dogs in my home that I have signed contracts for. All of them are rescue dogs. One of them is from a shelter, who had me sign that the dog would be returned to them if I didn't want her. The other two are from a rescue, and I signed that I would give the dogs back to the rescue group. Their microchips are registered to the group, not to me.
These are just my current rescue dogs. I have had some in the past, who I also signed contracts for.
Signing the contracts did not bother me in the least, and I will abide by them.
If pigs ever fly, I may be inclined to give my dogs back.

Edit: There seems to be some debate on why contracts exist. How dare shelters and rescues make people sign contracts?
Here is my example-take it for what it is worth, but think to yourselves, do you really know the people you are trusting a helpless life to? (property or not, which I consider is a misfortune, not an excuse to not sign contracts)

Guy wants to adopt a dog. He is a nice guy. Gets a home visit. Everything is wonderful. He had dogs in the past. Got great reference from his girlfriend. He adopts a dog. Signs a contract. Becomes a volunteer with the group. The dog he adopts is a 7ish? month old puppy. About 8 months later, he calls the rescue group (it's in his contract to do so) to tell them that the dog has heartworm so bad that he had the dog put down at the vet. Rescue volunteer tries to get him to give more details, like how could heartworm progress so far in a dog so young? Gets no answer to numerous emails and calls.
Finally she gets suspicious. She calls every vet in his town til she finds the one he used. The vet tells her this-" The only thing I can tell you is Animal Control is handling this".
BIG RED FLAG!
She calls animal control. Guess what? Dog is alive and there. He is in such poor condition they were going to put him out of his misery that day. Dog is saved by rescue group. Charges are pressed by state.
When dog is received in rescue, he is at about 35% body weight, has what looks like burn wounds all over his thighs, and a distinct boot print on his belly. He is close to death. He is being nursed back to health as we speak.

Gee, why would a rescue group or a shelter want to have a person sign a contract? Because there are so many horrible people in this world you have to do something to protect the helpless. It is great that some people are so above this and think the rescue groups are wrong, but just think about this little guy who did nothing wrong, and is scarred for life, and then justify your stand that we are such awful groups because we make people sign contracts.

Dogs are NOT just property and anyone who thinks this should not be allowed to own animals.

Answer 8

I'll be signing a new contract next year for my next Border Collie puppy. I am doing a performance/pet prospect, so the contract requires altering the pup and a limited registration. I am also required to OFA hips/elbows at 2 yrs of age and pass the results on to the breeder. Even tho this is not a breeding prospect, the breeder wants to know the ratings of all the pups in any given litter to keep records of that in her breeding program. If for any reason I were unable to keep the dog, I am to return the dog to the breeder, or if a suitable home is lined up, this needs to be approved by the breeder. I will be expected to inform the breeder of the puppy's accomplishments in the various performance areas we will be doing. I am also to use the "kennel" in the beginning of the AKC registered name of the pup as well.

There are other things, such as stipulating proper vet care and such for the puppy as well.

Answer 9

My 2 dogs that are adopted have the standard rescue contract of returning the dog in the event that I can't keep it, inside dog, yada yada.
My dog I bought from a breeder, just has a contract about contacting the breeder if I cannot keep the dog. That's about it.

Iluvtorofl - Wow is all I can say in response to your assinine answer. Repo men do not STEAL cars and they do it at night not because it is illegal, but because they are in danger of being attacked by the owner. The bank has every right to repo a car when the owner is in default of their loan. Are you saying that if you are not paying the rent to your home that a landlord cannot kick you out? I beg to differ!
Secondly, you do no understand the meaning of a contract. A signed contract that someone is going against makes it perfectly legal for someone to come and take back a dog. It would stand up in court, and a police officer would not arrest someone for taking a dog, when they have a signed contract in hand that the owner is violating. You speak of something being morally wrong, yet your very answer makes me question your morals to the point of utter disgust.

Answer 10

I signed a spay/neuter contract on my dog. That was all I signed. I got him from a kill shelter and that was all they required, beside saying that my address, name ....were correct.
our rescue requires all adopters sign a contract staing if they ever need to find a new home for the dog they will bring the dog to us.
We do not require a s/n contract because ALL of our dogs we s/n BEFORE placing them in homes.
Under some circumstances (only once have we done this) we will release the dog before the stitches come out. The adopter has to sign a contract saying they will go to a vet and get the stitches out and any charges are not our responsibility.

Answer 11

Most breeders of any quality have a sales contract, often with a stipulation that you return the dog to them if does not work out. I have signed that kind of sales contract before.

I have also signed an adoption contract with the same requirement. Actually many pet owners like that they can return an animal to shelter or rescue if it does not work out - they don't have to worry about rehoming the animal themselves.

I adopted a dog that ended up being a very bad fit for my household (severe separation anxiety not disclosed by the previous owner or noticed by the shelter because this sort of this does not present itself in the shelter and also high prey drive that ended up with injuries to my cat). It was sad and stressful to return him but a relief that I could get him out of our home quickly for our cat's sake. So these return clauses can be helpful too.