Prayer to the Saints - how can something so simple be so hard for Fundies to understand?

Question

First thing to understand is: Prayer is NOT worship.

One more time: PRAYER.. ..IS.. ..NOT ... WORSHIP

Prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life... ...neither the present nor the future.. ..neither height nor depth, nor anything else.. ..will be able to separate us". The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

But, Can They Hear Us? One charge against us is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite people to read this information:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed. The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator

Comments? More hate speech?

prayer1 /prɛər/ –noun

1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.
7. a petition; entreaty.
8. the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action

Source:
Dictionary
I do not see worhip in there

Answer 1

Prayer is worship, prayer is worship, prayer is worship, prayer is worship.

Answer 2

I agree with you that prayer is not worship. The biggest problem I have with the idea of praying to dead people or asking them to pray for me is that communicating with dead people is usually frowned upon in the Bible. You didn't address that, though.

When you quoted Romans 8:38-39, saying "neither death nor life...will be able to separate us," you left out the part where it says separate us from WHAT. I don't see how this passage would support your argument unless it said something like "separate us from Christians who have died." But that's not what it says. It says separate us from the love of God. What does that have to do with praying to dead saints?

I don't really see how Hebrews 12:22-24 justifies praying to dead people either. I mean what does it mean to "come to." It says that instead of coming to the mountain of Moses, we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, the angels, Jesus, the blood, etc. I don't get the impression any of this has anything to do with being able to pray to angels or to the spirits of dead people.

I can see how you would get that out of Revelation 5:8, but I don't see it as a particularly strong argument. First, the bowls of incence were being held by 24 elders, but from my understanding Catholics don't think these 24 elders are the only people we can offer prayers to. Second, the whole book of Revelation is apocalyptic, and it isn't at all clear that the meaning behind this passage is that we are able to give our prayers to elders who in turn give them to God. I'll grant it's possible, but this is far from a good argument for your view.

1 Timothy 2 is addressed to living Christians. It is to the living that Paul says they should pray for each other, not the dead. So this passage doesn't help your case at all.

You do make the point, though, that praying for other people is not the same thing as being a mediator between God and man. So I agree with you there. I don't think a person can object to asking dead people to pray for them merely on the basis that Jesus is the only mediator between God and men.

Answer 3

You make a major case that "prayer is not worship." This clearly contradicts the language of the New Testament. The primary Greek word translated "worship" is proskyneo, but in the English organized New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, a 5 volume NT dictionary, that word for "worship" is discussed under the heading "PRAYER." If, as you claim, they are unrelated, why does the only major theological dictionary published in recent times consider them to be related? A little study would show you that prayer is supposed to be MUCH MORE THAN REQUESTS. This is very clear from Jesus' example prayer... Matthew 6:9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy... SURE SOUNDS LIKE WORSHIP.

Answer 4

Nice try at twisting verses to fit your unbiblical premise. First, Romans 8:38-39:

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
I notice you left off the last part, "separate us from the love of God". An intentional bit of editing to support you weak position.

Hebrews 12:22- 24:

Heb 12:22 But you have drawn near Mount Zion, even the city of the living God, to a heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Heb 12:23 and to a gathering, an assembly of the first-born ones having been enrolled in Heaven; and to God the Judge of all, and to spirits of just ones who have been perfected;
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus the Mediator of a new covenant, and to blood of sprinkling speaking better things than that of Abel.

Has nothing to do with prayer. Simply contrasts between the Jewish system and the new covenant that allows believers to approach the throne of God.

Rev.5:8:
And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.

All believers are considered "Saints" in the Scriptures. So, this would be the prayers of all believers, not special people designated by the bishop of Rome as saints.

There is no need for us to pray for the saints or believers who have passed on, since they have been perfected. We do not need to pray to dead believers since we have access to God directly. We simply do need a middle man. Christ is our one and only mediator. Unless you can provide passages that clearly speak of this in a positive way, that is, Paul or another writer doing this or telling us to do this, it remains unbiblical and useless.

Heb 4:14 Then having a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathize with our weaknesses but One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin.
Heb 4:16 Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and we may find grace for timely help.

Answer 5

i am catholic but have always had great trouble with praying to the saints. the bible clearly states if I'm correct, no conversing with the dead. this is witchcraft. Why would i need a saint if i have god and jesus, anyway, and what if unknown to the church one of the saints denied god at the last minutes of his life and no one new, and he is now in hell and you are praying to them right?

Answer 6

The Bible is clear: "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people." (Lev 20:6) What New Testament law overrides this principle? Easy, there isn't one.

In addition, why do you judge these men as "saints" when Paul specifically says to leave such universal judgments for the end: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." (1Cr 4:5)

Answer 7

Only God and those who are IN Heaven know who is in heaven with Him…NOT YOU OR ANY OF THE REST OF US that are alive in this world.
There is NO SCRIPTURE that God says to pray to Saints of any kind and not to Him.
There is NO SCRIPTURE that supports praying to God made Saints OR man proclaimed saints and there is no scripture that is given by God that lists who the God made Saints are.
Even Jesus The Christ instructs believers to pray to the Father and when you want to ask the Father for something to ask of the Father in His name NOT to ask Him.
Praying to man proclaimed saints is shirk and you are setting up gods beside God and in Exodus chapter 20 verses 1-6 He says don’t do that because He is a jealous God.
You SEEM to understand what prayer is…SO DO IT RIGHT.
PRAY TO GOD…
NOT GOD MADE OR MAN PROCLAIMED SAINTS.

Answer 8

Hate speech? Telling you what your perverisons of the truth are is hate speech? Well, have it your way.

Bottom line. If the saints and mary were in heaven listening to your prayers there would be no need for a resurrection. And, scripture clearly points to a resurrection. Mary and the "saints" are dead and in their graves waiting their resurrectioin. Dead folks can hear no one's prayers.

This is so easily proven scripturally. Except to those blinded by their devotion to non-Biblical teachings.

Answer 9

The Saints were followers of God, they are NOT God Himself, so therefore they are not the ones to call on. If they could tell you this they would. Just like in the Bible in Revelation when John bowed down to the angel and the angel told Him not to bow down to him, because he's not God. Now, if it's not right to bow down to an angel, it's not right to pray to them. And if we can't bow or pray to an angel, we SURELY can't do so for the followers of God.

Sometimes I worry that Catholics are too concerned with Mary and every other Saint and fail to acknowlege the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He's our Lord and Saviour - not them !

Answer 10

God never seems to be there when you need Him, but he is always on time, something to think about, yes prayers are answered as He and those you pray to see fit, to benefit us the most, I have sen miracles in my life through prayers, God bless.

Answer 11

Where in the Bible does it teach to pray to the dead? The answer is nowhere. Also in Revelation they are 20 elders not saints. Even if you want to say they are the saints of the Catholic church there are only 20. Which of the many saints are actually part of this 20? When we are taught to pray in the Bible we are taught to pray to God. No one else. Praying to the saints is man made doctrine.

In your definition of prayer you said you do not see worship in there. Re-read definition 1.