Prayer to the Saints - how can something so simple be so hard for Fundies to understand?

Question

First thing to understand is: Prayer is NOT worship.

One more time: PRAYER.. ..IS.. ..NOT ... WORSHIP

Prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life... ...neither the present nor the future.. ..neither height nor depth, nor anything else.. ..will be able to separate us". The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

bUT, Can They Hear Us? One charge against us is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite people to read this information:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
I would also like to hear your comments or responses.
God bless everyone.

To "hope": Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed. The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

Answer 1

To fulfill Scripture about people looking but never seeing and ears for hearing but never understanding

Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on Earth

Answer 2

You make a major case that "prayer is not worship." This clearly contradicts the language of the New Testament. The primary Greek word translated "worship" is proskyneo, but in the English organized New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, a 5 volume NT dictionary, that word for "worship" is discussed under the heading "PRAYER."

If, as you claim, they are unrelated, why does the only major theological dictionary published in recent times consider them to be related?

A little study would show you that prayer is supposed to be MUCH MORE THAN REQUESTS. This is very clear from Jesus' example prayer... Matthew 6:9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy... SURE SOUNDS LIKE WORSHIP.

Answer 3

If you are going to quote Scripture then quote the whole verse (or sentence)
Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us FROM THE LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. {caps added by me for emphasis} That does not say from each other!

According to your Hebrews scripture, I guess you think we need to pray to angels also? Your words: "Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the ANGELS, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". "

Answer 4

I would guess that they have a problem with praying to dead people because of the canonization process.

Most fundies are upset by mystery and symbolism because they don't understand it and it is not a part of their culture. So when they see statues of saints, they associate them with idol worship.

Prayers to saints indicated that dead good people have the ability to change events here on earth. Which means that Jesus God and the HG aren't the only powers causing change. Fundies believe this isn't biblical. They also believe the canonization process is worldly, which means that humans are dictating which dead humans are holy enough to effect changes on earth. Which, if you think about it, makes a little sense.

What happens if the bishops and cardinals disregard the rules or bend doctrine to include a canonize a saint who really didn't deserve it? Millions of people would be praying for nothing.

Recently the picture of Pope John Paul II is being touted as a miracle, which would enable sainthood for the man. What if it is just fluke or even worse, turns out to be a doctored picture, after sainthood has been granted?

Either way, I don't care who you pray to, as long as you don't use your religion as an excuse to hurt others.

Answer 5

Read 1 Tim. 2:5. One God to pray to. You can pray to me.....
I'm a saint, a set-apart one as Paul says. You are blinded by
the god of this age. 2 Cor. 4:4 and also worthless ritual.
You will be very sorry a the Bema Seat Judgment for following
this man-made stuff. :( You better wake up before it's too late!

Yes, prayer is a form of worship of a high being than man. You
worship people who are sinners.

Answer 6

Jesus Christ is the only intercessor between God and man.
Why would you think that God would listen to any one other than His Son?
In Revelations, John saw great multitudes singing praises to God. They were the saints who have gone before us.

Why go through a middle-man instead of asking Jesus?

Answer 7

Why pray to the saints? Is your omnicognizant god not capable of hearing you directly? Is he more likely to act if one of the saints passes on your request?

If you pray to the saints are you not elevating them to a god-like status? What was that 1st commandment again?

Go ahead pull the string on that top again. I love to see things spinning wildly.

Answer 8

Chapter 6 of Matthew is an example of how we should pray. It does not start out Dear Saint Mark, etc.

Answer 9

Have you ever heard of the Lords prayer? That is the example that Jesus gave us.

Answer 10

p.s. sorry guys, I got a low rating before i even had a chance to post. How come it says 0 answers and yet there are already many who have answered!!!???


Catholic Crusader wrote:

Prayer to the Saints - how can something so simple be so hard for Fundies to understand? First thing to understand is: Prayer is NOT worship.
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Prayer and praise and thanksgiving to God are the inward or outward signs of what is called "worship".
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Crasader wrote:

Prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life... ...neither the present nor the future.. ..neither height nor depth, nor anything else.. ..will be able to separate us". The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.
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To begin with, those whom the Catholic Church calls "saints" are not necessarily those whom God recognizes as such. Second, the "saints" that are in Heaven, officiating before the throne, are certainly not those whom the pope canonized because they got there before the existence of any pope. They are Elijah who was translated without seeing death and Moses who was resurrected shortly after he died, and those who were raised from the dead and taken to Heaven at the time of the resurrection of Christ. This is what the Bible says.

Furthermore, the saints who died in the Old Testament, other than Elijah and Moses and those who were raised from the dead at the resurrection of Christ, are still in their graves, unconscious, for, as it is written, "The dead know not anything" until the resurrection. It is the same for the saints who died the last 2000 years since Christ. They are waiting for the resurrection at the coming of Christ. 1 Thess.4:13-18.

For "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." Ecc.9:6,10.
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Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS
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Yes there are men there who have been made perfect. We know who they are. The Bible is clear on that, not those who have been canonized by the pope. The Scriptures declare that all true believers are saints while they are alive on this earth!

Catholic Crusader: Notice that these "saints" who have been made perfect and who are in Heaven, they are presenting the prayers of the "saints" who are still living on the earth! From a catholic point of view how could that be since the pope says that he alone can determine who is a saint and that determination never happens until after the death of the individual and sometimes it takes many many years before it is finally decided!

Something is definitely wrong with this picture, don't u think Catholic Crusader? :)

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