Tradition AND Scripture? The Catholics and Orthodox had it right all along...?

Question

For those Protestants:

Tradition is NOT more important than Scripture, it is COMPLEMENTARY to Scripture. The Bible didn't arrive by fax from God, and Jesus passed his teachings orally to His Apostles, who in turn passed it verbally on to their own students and disciples in Christ, LONG before any of it was written down. Paul's epistles were written 30-50 years after Jesus died, and the Gospels 50-100 years after He died.

Where was Scripture in that time? Oops, there wasn't any in the New Testament! Did Christianity disappear in between when Jesus died and the New Testament was written? Most Protestants think so, but if you are able to open your eyes and do a bit of research, you will see that TRADITION CAME DIRECTLY FROM JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, AND IS THE FIRST BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY AFTER HIS DEATH.

Guess what? The Catholics and Orthodox had it right all along.

Research, logic and questioning the accepted status quo isn't a sin, but ignorance, is!

Answer 1

A bit caustically put, but right.

Answer 2

Well said, Christine. I am continually amazed by dogmatic Puritans who argue against all the evidence that God dictated a holy book with the absolute and complete truth, a book that was supposedly in the hands of the apostles within days after the Ascension.

Particularly when the holy book explicitly denies that everything we need is there:

John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Maybe that verse is missing from the KJV? Nope:

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

If a complete and perfect, self-interpreting holy book is God's plan for salvation, why didn't Jesus write it?

And why do the Puritans have such difficulty with John 3:5 on baptism and John 6 on eating the body of Christ? Why did Paul, Peter, and the other apostles face martyrdom rather than retiring to a cave to take dictation on the holy book? Instead, they went out preaching an oral Gospel that they received by word of mouth.

The Catholics and Orthodox, who date to the apostles rather than to the 16th century, do indeed have it right.

Cheers,
Bruce

Answer 3

Nicely done. Not that it will change many granite-hard minds, but good show nevertheless.

Kindly forgive this hijacking of your question, but I must respond to someone above who already ran it off the rails:

Daydreamer, sweetie ... wake up.

Try reading the ante-Nicene church fathers, and lose the Constantine hang-up. Here's a link for you (and it's not a Catholic site by any means): http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html/

Mary worship? Shame on you for perpetuating a very old bias. For the 5,000,000,000th time: We DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.

Is your Bible missing the entire New Testament? That's the only way I can figure out your odd statement about the Eucharist, "In the Bible you can *only* find how God said don't drink blood." Borrow a New Testament and read John 6:51-67, then 1 Corinthians 11:28-30.

Purgatory, the concept, is indeed in the Bible. The word "Trinity" isn't there either, nor (for that matter) is the word "Bible". Among others. The argument is specious.

Co-redemptrix doesn't mean what you obviously think it means. Only people who jump to conclusions without actually doing a little checking -- and/or hate the Catholic Church and are fond of their bias against it -- think it means more than one Savior and Redeemer.

As for "Mariology", I think you have your pejoratives mixed up. It's "Mariolatry" y'all have a problem with. Mariology is simply the study of Mary's role in Christianity -- an academic-type endeavor. "Mariolatry", on the other hand, is a derogatory term many anti-Catholics use to mean that other thing you mentioned: "worship" of Mary, in this case the statues and icons and such that supposedly constitute idolatry.

Here's something I'm sure you didn't know: We aren't REQUIRED to ask for Mary's intercession, pray the Rosary, recite the "Hail Mary", believe in Marian apparitions, etc.

As for the world being "drenched in pagan practices" ... I'm going to chalk that up to emotional hyperbole.

Answer 4

Good points.

There are actually Scripture that tells us to follow Holy Tradition:

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2)

I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (John 16:12-13)

The Catholic Church does not use Holy Scripture as the only basis of doctrine. It could not. The early Catholic church existed before and during the time that the New Testament was written (by Catholics).

There were hundreds of Christian writings during the first and second centuries. Which New Testament writings would become official was not fully decided until about 400 C.E.

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding the early church (and is guiding the church today) to make the correct choices about things like:
+ The Holy Trinity (which is also only hinted at in the Bible)
+ Going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday (which is actually directly against one of the Ten Commandments)
+ The Communion of Saints
+ Which writings include in the New Testament?

Things that are even more modern like
+ Slavery is bad. Slavery is never declared evil in the Bible. This was one of the justifications for slavery in the Confederate States.
+ Democracy is good. The Bible states that either God should be the leader of the nation like Israel before the kings or kings should be the leader, "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's." This was talked about a lot during the American Revolution.

This second source of doctrine is called Apostolic Tradition.

Do Christians who do not allow the continuing guiding force of the Holy Spirit to make their beliefs more and more perfect, still endorse slavery as Colossians 3:22 commands, "Slaves, obey your human masters in everything"?

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 80 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.htm#80

With love in Christ.

Answer 5

*sigh* i feel kind of bad for the people who use the "Jesus doesn't like tradition" quote and think they're something, while completely ignoring the context of the fact that it's traditions of men that contradict the word of God.

http://www.olrl.org/apologetics/cathansr.shtml#ans11


purgatory:
http://www.olrl.org/apologetics/cathansr.shtml#ans17


edit-
daydreamer, that Constantine bio was, frankly, silly. Nestorius wanted to remove ALL objects, everything, he wasn't some truth teller who was against Mary, as the site implys.

second, Mariology isn't a Catholic belief

third, Mithras has nothing to do with the Catholic sabbath. It's on Sunday becuase Christ resurrected on Sunday.

i stopped after that.


lost.eu/21618

Answer 6

Orthodoxy is the religion that has stayed the same since the Apostle because Roman Catholics brought in new heresies like purgatory, papism and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son, doctrines that were made for political reasons.

Answer 7

If this were the case we would still worship on the Sabbath. There would be no idolatry in the churches. We would not be confessing sins to priests or praying to Mary. And the church of Rome would have never been allowed to become a murderous, power hungry, corporate enterprise.

Church would be more like a fulfillment of Judaism based on faith in Yahushua Ha'Maschiach. But what happened is long after the apostles rested and Christ ascended into heaven. Satan conspired to create his own churches. Hence Roman Catholism and Islam. And he's been fooling people ever since. The bible (Christ's Testimony (Old and New) are the only source of truth in connection with Messiah. Not church 'traditions'.

"and why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3)

"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:13)

Answer 8

Yes ~ it is a well query! We be given baptism once we realise who Jesus is and what he did for us. A little one does no longer realise. Besides that youngsters are natural and get tainted by way of the sector. They don't seem to be born in sin now on account that Jesus grew to become a curse in order that we would be redeemed. Parents are a non secular overlaying for his or her youngsters. So if a youngster will get ill they pray over their youngsters and they're healed. Parents shield their youngsters till they're ready to realise and ask to have Jesus of their lives. It isn't biblical to do it earlier than their competencies of Jesus. Catholics do it to hinder them from going to hell if heaven forbid they will have to die younger. Babies don't seem to be tainted with sin at any such younger age. Sin is found out. They are natural in center. That is why Jesus mentioned no longer to disclaim the youngsters from coming ahead to him. These youngsters have been of age of path. They were not toddlers. The baptism that occurred at Cornelius used to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that means they prayed in tongues after which they have been water baptized. These 2 steps are what Jesus did and so we have to comply with his instance. ~MATTHEW three:sixteen And Jesus, whilst he used to be baptized, went up straightway [out of the water]: and, lo, the heavens have been opened unto him, and he noticed the [Spirit of God descending like a dove], and lighting fixtures upon him: Jesus used to be no longer a little one so you'll be able to make the realization that we have got to be ready to realise what water baptism approach. *IT IS AN OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF AN INWARD CHANGE* What the bible describes because the "NEW CREATION" or "CREATURE" ~two COR five:17 Therefore if any guy be in Christ, he's a [new creature]: ancient matters are kicked the bucket; behold, all matters are come to be new. God bless you!

Answer 9

To CJ: Constantine was a pagan who CONVERTED to Christianity. He did not invent Catholicism. He was in Byzantium and therefore was an Orthodox Christian, and had nothing to do with Rome and the Catholics. Your origin of a "Babylonian pagan cult" is baseless.

To R: The Orthodox follow the Apostolic Tradition. The Catholics don't. The schism happened in 1050 because Rome altered the original Apostolic Traditions, and introduced new heresies from which many people revolted and protested--hence the birth of Protestantism. The Churches of East and West are not in communion with each other because of these differences, which the Orthodox will not accept, and originally because the Bishop of Rome should not have declared himself the head Bishop. Sola Scriptura is only half of Christianity. This written tradition came from the oral tradition, which Protestants reject, and therefore have an incomplete understanding of complete Christianity. The Catholics and the Orthodox are not divided against themselves, but against each other.

To Papa: First, confessing ones sins to the priest is Biblical. In the early days of Christianity, there were few Christians and most of them knew each other. Christians obeyed Christ's command to confess one to another before God. But as Christianity spread, and more Christians were around, they were strangers to each other and it became more difficult to confess one's sins before strangers. So the most holy Christians, the ones who were more learned and adhered more strictly to the Christian life, became the confessors, and their ability to do this was passed on to them through the laying on of hands. The Orthodox version of confession differs from the Catholic in that the priest is merely the witness to the confession before God and bestows the forgiveness of God to the repentant Christian. The Catholic priest wrongly gives his own forgiveness. A common misconception is running rampant among anti-traditionalists such as the Protestants. The Sola Scriptura advocates do not understand which traditions Jesus spoke out against. It is the traditions of the Jews, with their extreme legalisms, and twisting of the commandments to suit their own purposes, that Jesus was against. Saint Paul says in the Bible, to hold on to the traditions which you have been given, whether oral or written. So how is it possible that Christ was against all traditions? The traditions that the Orthodox hold on to are the traditions which the Apostles themselves practiced. These traditions were not against the Bible because the New Testament Bible had not yet been written. Any Christian tradition which is based on the Bible is in harmony with the Bible and therefore on par with it.

To F'sho: Are you claiming that idolatry would not exist among Christians if they adhered only to the written Scripture? Didn't the Jews, who adhered strictly to the Old Testament Scripture for centuries before Christ came, also fall into idolatry, and were constantly punished by God for doing so? The role of Church is to lead Christians to the truth. It cannot make people perfect and sinless, so sin will exist regardless of how pure the Church is or is not. Also, your statement that "Satan conspired to create his own churches," also applies to the entire Protestant movement with all it's thousands of offshoots, and the entire Protestant movement bases its beliefs solely on Sola Scriptura.

Also, praying to the saints is not worship. It is just that, praying to those holy ones who imitated Christ and have received the crown of glory from Christ in heaven. These holy ones are alive beyond death and are in constant prayer to the Lord for mercy upon the Earth. Intercessory prayer is Biblical, for all who died in Christ are alive, and that is because God is a God of the living, not of the dead (this is from the Bible as well.) Mary worship, on the other hand, is idolatry. Saints are to be venerated because they are in the image of Christ, but not worshipped because they are not God.

Answer 10

Religious Traditions and the Bible
“YOU make the word of God invalid by your tradition.” These were the words of no one else but Jesus Christ. (Mark 7:13) Like many people today, the Jews in Jesus’ day faithfully adhered to a complicated pattern of precepts and customs. And like many of today’s clergymen, their religious leaders viewed these traditions as more important than the Bible.

In view of what Jesus said, can a Christian really regard any religious tradition as being on a par with the Bible? Hardly. No matter how much sentiment or emotion may be tied up with a custom, a Christian’s concern is whether it harmonizes with God’s Word or not. As a case in point, consider some traditional religious acts described in the Catholic book Liturgy—An Elementary Course, by María A. Lombillo Clark, T.D. How do these traditions compare with what the Bible actually says?

Answer 11

If the both the Orthodox and Catholic churches follow apostolic oral tradition exactly, how come they teach different doctrine , that they are not even in communion with each other?
Whose "church authority" shall we believe?
Whose tradition is the one we should follow?

If Sola Scriptura (The Bible Alone) cannot be the correct method of determining truth because of the religious division among churches that claim to use Sola Scriptura (Protestants), then does this not also disqualify the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches method of using tradition, since they are divided against themselves?