Do most theists not understand the difference between atheism and secularism?

Question

It seems that many theists equate atheism with secularism when discussing topics such as prayer in schools for example. I see that many Christians believe that taking prayer out of schools is like 'forcing atheism' on their children however, it is not. There is a distinct difference between atheism and secularism (which is what our nation was founded on) and the distinction seems to be lost on many theists, namely the ones who answered this question:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AsWIn0pkvs8aniTnH3wuhAfpy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071014165520AAw7kBH

Paula Revere - I suggest you take a gander at the Treaty of Tripoli:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Answer 1

yeah, I know the difference...and as a christian realize it is ridiculous to have mandated prayers in public schools. Our culture is too diverse for one and it goes against our laws....however prayer by individual students is their right and should be accommodated for (Muslim prayers facing mecca at specific times of day for example). I am one who will not be utilizing the public schools and choosing to home-school because I do want mandatory prayer and religious education for my children...If other Christians or religious groups feel the same way then they should make the appropriate sacrifices to home-school or pay for private school...The public schools are not the place for religious indoctrination (and quite frankly for education either...as far as education goes homeschoolers and privately educated children outperform public schooled children by miles so even if I was still an atheist I would not utilize the public schools either).

Answer 2

It's clear the ones who still insist on mixing church and state don't (or just don't WANT to):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AlULipJl.i6RGv5YPUXEyQ_ty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071015222702AA6KirU

Evangelism is their sole purpose for existence, and they take it to be a command from something they can't even prove exists. You can't reason with them on that level alone. So once that precedent is already set, they will see reality filtered in any means they desire so that they can keep their agenda (evangelizing) in the spotlight and ideally in the machinery of every day life (public and private).

Understanding the difference that you mention is at direct odds with their agenda. So is the situations where people like Paul Revere (user on this thread) throw out things like "USA founded as Christian nation" but don't back it up. The historical facts are at odds with their agenda.

I still don't understand how they figure atheists have an influential majority in public education to indoctrinate anyone!

Answer 3

Paula Revere -- Huh? Have you ever read the constitution? Exactly what part of it do you think establishes the US as a Christian nation? Is it the fact that religion is never mentioned except that it mandates: (1) No establishment of religion (2) No restriction on free exercise of religion, and (3) No religious test for public office?

It does not seem to support your point.

Answer 4

Atheism is not believing in god or gods, Secularism is keeping religion out of everyday life. At least that's how I perceive it. I don't think prayer should be mandated in public schools. It's all fine for private schools since it's the neighborhood paying for it and not the government.
I do however believe that if someone feels the need to pray they should be allowed to. Public school need to take a more indifferent approach toward these things. It seems to me that people take the whole separation of church and state to a whole new literal meaning.
I don't believe anyone should be forced to say the pledge of allegiance, the whole basis of this country was not having to pledge allegiance to anyone. Hence "free country".
People who believe taking prayer out of school is clearly ignorant to the fact of what forcing and atheism truly are. Taking prayer out of schools isn't forcing anything on anyone, it simply allows those who do not want to pray not have to, and the who do want to pray still should be able to.
There is nothing atheist about not wanting to pray and not want to have prayer in a public place. That is secular, atheist would be like forcing the children to pray to science, that would be messed up.
If any of my conceptions were messed up, please correct me.

Answer 5

Maybe it is because an atheist from Austin, Texas, called Madelyne O'Haira took The Lord's Prayer out of school. Of course, if we'd finance our own schools and not accept tax dollars we could pray whatever we wanted.

Your question was "Why do Christians want to mandate prayer in Public Schools?"

If you want to prove atheists and secularists are different, then get on another subject. In Texas we well remember this atheist woman and her horrible story.

I don't know where you live, but I live in Texas and an atheist
got prayer taken out of the Public Schools.

Answer 6

I would not equate atheism with secularism but at the same time atheism must have secular characteristics.

I think it would be hard to prove a secular orientation in education when our nation was founded. The Bible was often used as a text and biblical passages were common in teaching reading and writing.

Answer 7

I might think rather that there are many people who do not understand theism, atheism, secularism, Paganism, Christianity and other subjects.

Perhaps Christians are more led astray because they take at face value the teachings of ministers, thinking them equal to true teachers. Many of these ministers preach against and about things that they are singularly unqualified to speak about. A degree in theology does not equip one to speak intelligently about the physics of the Big Bang or Evolution.

Then again, I've met lots of ignorant atheists; or people who call themselves atheists, but who are really agnostics. I've met people who call themselves agnostics who are actually theists. I've met hundreds of Christians who don't know what the word "Christian" means, thinking Catholics to be Pagans.

Our language has suffered terribly over the past few decades. No Child Left Behind now equates to "No Child Reaches Their Potential". Everyone is held back to the least common denominator. Education is a farce, and unless a parent can either afford a private education, or is able to teach their children themselves, everyone suffers, and the meaning of words is lost.

Few people on YA! have a real capacity for language. With the inability of most to understand the difference between "your" and "you're" or "their" and "they're", is it any wonder why some would not understand the difference between atheism, agnosticism, theism, secularism and other constructs or positions?

It seems that we live in a society where learning and understanding are frowned upon. People who speak or write intelligently are considered show-offs or know-it-alls. People who know what they are talking about are seen as desiring to be superior.

I suppose that in a sense, I do wish to be superior. I wish to be superior in knowledge today, compared to what I knew yesterday. I wish to progress and learn. I can't do that by merely accepting the dogma that the world wishes to stuff down my throat. I need to learn and to study and to grow. It's easy to listen to a preacher or to read a book. That though, does not increase the learning in the world.

Learning is meant to give people the ability to think for themselves. It is designed to afford one the capacity to think critically; to question and to add to society.

One cannot come to conclusions about atheism and secularism if they don't know what the words mean. When the sum total of what people know about atheism is what they are taught in church on Sunday (or Wednesday), about how "atheists want to take god out of the country", they have less than no knowledge. In the words of Mark Twain, "It's not what you don't know that makes you look stupid; it's what you do know that ain't so."

I don't blame Christians, or theists in general, for not knowing the difference. I blame an educational system that has left a country behind. I doubt that most people with High-School educations could read a copy of the New York Times from 100 years ago and understand it. I helped my daughter who was studying the Cuban Revolution, and the text mentioned nothing about Che Guevara.

Education in this country sucks, and we are all witness to the ignorance that results. Few people on this board are able to argue anything of relevance because few people are educated enough to add anything of substance. Aside from the fact that skills in rhetoric are missing, should they exist, what body of knowledge are people equipped with in schools?

Our students are taught watered-down, politically correct and sanitized history. Controversy, that wonderful motivator that leads students to discuss topics and gain understanding is avoided as detrimental. We might not learn, but we certainly won't be rabble rousers.

Anyway ... it was long, and you struck a nerve.

Sorry,

--Dee

Answer 8

The difference is the lack of knowledge. Nambinorkku Natarajan Nambadhavarkku Yemarajan.

Answer 9

as long as we're talking semantics (I'm not anti-semantic, btw....and I'm always up for semantics...sorry), nobody has taken prayer out of the schools...we just do not want the schools themselves to controll prayer. That makes for an exclusive environment to those that are not of the religion used as a template for that prayer.

Answer 10

How can you say this country was founded on secularism when GOD is on our money and monuments and the declaration on Independence and we swear on the Bible in court? This country was founded by GOD fearing people so that everyone can believe the way they want.