Question for Catholics. If ................?

Question

Catholic doctrine teaches that when the pope speaks a word concerning the church or things pertaining to God that you must take that as Christ speaking to you, his word is the infallible word of God.

My question is, why do Catholics still believe this? You can look back to the days of the inquistions and say, "that was a sorry time in our history," yet Pope Paul lll ordered them. It is very obvious to us now that the torturing and murdering of innocent people that didn't agree with the Catholic Church was not of God, so there is an example of the pope's word not being from God. And this is just one example. So my question to you is, how can you today believe that each pope automatically receives the infallible word of God when He speaks to his church.

This is not meant to bash Catholics. Please don't be offended. Anyone with a truly thought out answer won't insult me for asking. If you do, I'll take that to mean you can't think of a real answer.

The problem with your answers on ex cathedra is that it was changed at least 3 times but 3 different popes while in ex cathedra. (Councils of Constance, Basle and Vatican Council)

Since I can't find out at the moment whether Pope Paul lll sat ex cathedra when proclaiming the inquistions which seems to me they wouldn't have been followed if he didn't, I'll cite another example.
How can one infallible pope, Eugene IV (1431-1447), condemn Joan of Arc (1412-1431) to be burned alive as a witch, while another pope, Benedict XV, in 1919, declares her to be a saint?

That is one of many contradictions one Pope in ex cathedra w/ council has said contrary to an earlier pope of the same standing.

To Raxtonit - I did not know that not all Catholics believe this. Then I am referring to RC's. Thanks for clarifying that. I learned something new today.

Answer 1

The RCC supporters need to post links to historical sites rather than the Vatican or other RCC links. Constantine made a form of Christianity the official religion about 300AD, which is when the teachings of the original scriptures were glossed over to suit Constantine. He was the first "Pope." There is nothing even vaguely suggesting that one Apostle has abslolute power over other Apostles. Many RCC think the fact that they are the largest and the richest church has to mean they are the "only true Christians." I wonder why the bible states the gate is narrow? What can we do with the statement that "we are all of the royal priesthood?" Vow of poverty, what does that have to do with the riches of any church? Jesus washed the feet of the Disciples, the Pope gets his ring kissed. Go figure. Peter would have probably lobbed off more than the ear of anyone attempting to lift him to such a lofty and unscriptural position.

Answer 2

This is a good question, and represents a frequent confusion about the Catholic doctrine of the Pope's infallibility.

The First Vatican Council defined that the Pope is infallible under certain conditions, not just any time he opens his mouth. These conditions are:
1) He has to be making a proclamation as the Pope, not just as an independent scholar or anything else (so, for instance, Pope Benedict's new book is not considered infallible).
2) He has to be talking about a matter of faith and morals. The Pope can't infallibly proclaim that the Original Star Trek is better than Star Trek: The Next Generation.
3) He has to be clear that he is exercising his capacity of infallibility. If he just says, "Hey, everyone should be doing this," but doesn't make it clear that he is saying that as the infallible head of the Church, that statement is not infallibly defined.

Also, the belief isn't that the Pope is receiving the Word of God. The Word of God was given once and for all in Jesus Christ and was witnessed to authoritatively by the Scriptures and the Tradition. The Pope is not above this Word, but serves it, as the Church said in the 60s.

The idea of infallibility is that the Holy Spirit protects the Pope, on certain occasions, from giving an interpretation of the Word of God which would be in error.

I hope that helps.

Answer 3

I'm not saying the crusades were right to have happened. But Sentinel take a look at the Old Testament. Lots of wars were fought in the name of God. I haven't read any books on the crusades but the pope was in Rome and the people from what I understand weren't a uniformed army they picked up all kinds of blood thirsty people along the way to fight. It seemed like a chaotic battle. I know there were 3(?) crusades but from what I understand they didn't care who they killed - friend or foe. I think anyone who claims war in the name of God should really examine themselves and their motives. I'm a Catholic. I don't know how I feel about the infallibility of the pope and all he is saying supposedly coming from God nor do I think that is what they say. I would hope someone in such a high position would have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

Answer 4

Not all Catholics believe in papal infallibility. Orthodox Christians, most Anglo-Catholics, and Old Catholics don't. Roman Catholics, to whom you obviously refer, do.

The Pope is not said to be infallible whenever he makes a statement. Since papal infallibility was declared in 1870, it has only been invoked once (when the dogma of the bodily Assumption of Our Lady was defined in the 1950s). Contrary to what someone said above, Ordinatio sacerdotalis was not an "ex cathedra" statement.

Answer 5

Catholic doctrine does not teach that the word of the pope is to be accepted as the word of Christ .. or the word of god.

As I recall... the pope is the head man of the Church and as such, the highest authority of the Catholic Church on Earth... that's what I was taught in Catholic school.. Such lessons were invariably reinforced with numerous thrashings just to be certain that I remembered them. These I considered then, are plainly lessons of man.

Answer 6

If a pope were to order the torture of an innocent person, he would be making a grave moral error. A pope is fully capable of sinning.

The pope is infallible only when he is teacing Catholic Church on the subjects of faith and morality from teh position of the head of the Catholic Church. There have been only two times in history in which the Pope has declared a particular teaching to be infallible - the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Assumption of Mary.

Answer 7

+PAX

The Pope is only infallible when he speaks Ex Cathedra or from the Throne of Peter.

Again, the Catholics have apologized formally for the crusades. I believe JPII did this.

If you wait until your church is 2000 years old, I'm certain that you will have made mistakes as well. You're just too young yet.

Of course, you don't mention all the Catholics martyred over the course of 2000 years. Two priests were just martyred yesterday. Have you said a prayer for them or will you simply continue to JUDGE us?

Yes, Peter was the first Pope. "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church".

In Humility,
j

Answer 8

The pope speaks infallibly only ex cathedra, from the Chair of Peter. Jesus, who said, Jn 10:11 “I am the good shepherd,” told Peter, Jn 21:15 “Feed my lambs … Tend my sheep … Feed my sheep.”

It is always very clear when a pope is speaking definitively. For example, Pope Pius XII’s apostolic constitution defining the dogma of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s assumption body and soul into heaven, Munificentissimus Deus, # 44, states: “... we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

Another example is Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, states: “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

When such definitive language is present, the pope is clearly speaking infallibly. When it is not present, he may or may not be speaking infallibly. We look for evidence that he is speaking with the full weight of his apostolic authority.

Within the context of the magisterium, the pope can freely offer his personal views the same as any private theologian. In most cases, when speaking as a private theologian, the pope makes it clear that he is not speaking infallibly, such as by inviting alternate viewpoints. Of course, when a pope speaks as a private theologian and openly invites alternative views, he is speculating rather than teaching. In that case we owe him the great respect due his office but not necessarily the intellectual assent due to his teachings
Now the Inquistion is very misunderstood in today`s modern mind but at the time it was seen as necessary to eradicate the heresies that threatened to destroy or at least subvert the faith of the people.
There are many examples in the Bible when God destroyed heretics for the very same reason,Jesus gave avery stern warning about corrupting His children,`` Better that a millstone be tied around their necks and they be cast into the sea than corrupt one of these My little ones``

Answer 9

That is not correct. He is only infallibe when he speaks Ex Cathedra, from the Chair of Peter (which has only formally happened twice in the last 150 years, although proclamations of saints, for example, are also an excercise of infallibility). You can read a correct description here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25).

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 ("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").

Answer 10

god is equal to our understanding of him at the era and space we are in....unless you know the real god,you will act upon your own definition of god.So god changes with time and space you are in...at that time the pope was right just like Jesus when he wiped the people in the temple...you are right the real god does not do these things,only humans,any leaders are humans,Jesus,popes,Mohamed,Hitler,they all are humans and most of us follow them...