CHRISTIANS -- Why is faith better than knowledge? Why is free will better than "mostly" free will?

Question

God COULD HAVE designed us with absolute, indisputable, unavoidable knowledge of his existence (don't argue that he already has since no such knowledge exists in my brain). Such knowledge wouldn't force us to love him or worship him and thus we wouldn't be "puppets" or "robots" or "slaves".

And God COULD HAVE decided to give each of us absolutely free will UNTIL we commit sins that may effect the salvation of others. For the "greater good" (i.e. for the sake of benefiting many other souls instead of our singular soul), God could limit our will in such a way that we were incapable (either temporarily or permanently, however God wanted to handle it) of commiting said sins, but otherwise free to be or do whatever else we liked.

I've asked about these two possibilities in other questions & haven't received what I consider satisfactory responses. Please don't explain to me what free will IS. That's not what I want to know. Please actually try to address the scenarios presented.

Nick, why is it more "loving" to give us free will rather than "mostly" free will? Our justice system doesn't refrain from imprisoning serious offenders because they will eventually reap what they sow; we imprison them to punish them and to remove them from a society that they may further harm. Why doesn't God remove an "offenders" ability to further harm his beloved creations?

When I say "faith", I mean "faith in God's existence". Why is "faith" in God's existence better than KNOWLEDGE of God's existence? And I mean, like I said before, absolute, unquestionable, unavoidable knowledge of his existence.

Again, when I say "faith", I mean "faith in God's existence". Why is "faith" in God's existence better than "KNOWLEDGE" of God's existence? And I mean, like I said before, absolute, unquestionable, unavoidable knowledge of his existence.

lostintranslation, God is said to be ALL POWERFUL... are you suggesting he couldn't do it?

As for the "second part" of my question: A person can be either so psychologically scarred that they will never have faith in humanity or a "god" again, or they could be so physically injured that they are either incapacitated or killed before being saved.

If you say the word "puppet", I'm disregarding you.

Bella, at least you know that your husband EXISTS. There's no denying it. That's all I'm asking, that we know absolutely that God EXISTS. I'm not saying that he should force us to love and worship him. I'm just saying we ought to be designed to know, indisputably and unavoidably, that he exists.

Bella, to burst your bubble, no, I don't "know" that God exists but have yet to meet him. There is no God to meet. There exist no deities, not even the Abrahamic one.

I've been operating within the Christian framework, referring to God as though it exists so that the Christians wouldn't first have to contend that their God exists before answering my questions. But again, no such knowledge of any god's existence dwells within my mind.

I'm proposing that if such an Abrahamic, Judeo-Christian-Islamic God did exist, it could design into us an UNAVOIDABLE and absolute knowledge of it's existence. Unavoidable in that I could not honestly deny it. Though such knowledge of it's existence would NOT force us to love it or to worship it, such knowledge WOULD certainly make it easier on the more naturally skeptical to accept it's existence and thereby possibly "get saved".

Why are people bringing up Adam & Eve? Never did I say that this knowledge of God's existence would be FOOLPROOF... I'm only saying that it would make it easier for the naturally skeptical to accept God's existence and "get saved". I know that the Bible tells the story of Adam & Eve screwing up. Is that ONE allegory supposed to suggest to me that the proposed scenario wouldn't work?

Serafim, you could've saved yourself a lot of time and simply posted "My position is that God knows what he's doing and to question 'how it is' is pointless".

Or you could've just said "God's smarter than you, I'm sure he's already thought of this".

It's a strange way to answer "why is faith better than knowledge" and "why is free will better than mostly free will"... but I guess it's sort of an answer.

I won't say it again: no such indisputable, absolute, unavoidable knowledge of God's existence dwells within my mind. I know the god concept to be logically impossible. Nothing can change that fact of reality just like nothing can make a "three sided square" logically possible. If you contend that God HAS planted such knowledge in my mind, I'm here to tell you "nope".

Answer 1

faith gives us access to the revelation knowledge of the Spirit .. thats where its at and there is no argument ..

Answer 2

Faith is a tool. Knowledge is an acquired volume of assorrted information collected from outside yourself and can be true or not. Faith surperceeds knowledge because of courage to let go of know ideas and proceed beyond the knowledge. Such would be running into a burning building because you have faith that you can possible save someone even though you have knowledge that the buliding is burning and the knowledge that you could loose your life.
Jesus said you must have the faith of a child. This means that in order to understand and mentally see the God and his kingdom, you must have a faith that a child has. No preconceived notions or knowledge blocking your path.
Many people have knowledge because they read about God and form an opinion. They seek signs and proof. Faith will override and superceed knowledge because most times knowledge is not personal experience but passed on information. Faith goes beyond knowledge.
Free will is better than mostly free will because we are not slaves in any way we so choose. In a relationship to God, God does not want robots. He want our free will choice to turn to him and to Love him. We have a spark of God within us called spirit. It makes us different from other entities because we are capable of sharing the revalation of who God is through his Love that we may pass on to others. This is a feeling, be it mental or physical. We are the conduit of God experiencing himself. If God were to take part of free will away, then the experiment would not be perfect. It would be controled. God does not interfer in out lives but he will interact in our lives when we communicate the desire to do so through prayer. Blessing and the Love of God to you.
I hope this may help.
Rev. TomCat

Answer 3

I'll try and keep this one short, because this topic could carry on for quite a long time.

The way I see it, short story, is that there is:

1. The way we want it.
2. The way it should be.
3. The way it is.

Your suggestions are either the way you want it, or what you think is the way it should be.

A Christian would argue that the way it is described in scripture is, "the way that it is." And anything else would come under numbers 1 and 2. If you are pulling for numbers 1 or 2, you are setting yourself up as a god, or saying that you know better than God does.

A Christian would argue that an all powerful, all knowing God has "set things up" in a manner that would "save" the most people, in the best manner, for the greatest good, and that it is impossible to understand those methods, except by studying "the truth" as revealed by the all powerful, all good, all knowing Creator.

So yes, God "could have" done it your way, and I'm sure you may see "your way" as being better, same as I think "my way" is better, and everyone else wants it done "their way" too.

But to be honest with you, I am glad that I do not "make the rules" because I have no idea what I am doing most of the time. And no offense, but I don't want anyone else running the show either. Humans simply are too selfish and stupid to be making the rules. We were given a shot at it (and we are given the opportunity every day) and we suck at it.

But, I think that you are part right, and I think you are arguing in a matter of "degree".

I.e. (Using partially your words)

1. God did decide to give each of us absolutely free will until we commit sins that may effect the salvation of others. (But it sounds like you want God to intervene more). The argument against this is that God is patient with us, allowing us to mess things up (which he turns to good) while he waits for us to "change our minds" or in religious speak "repent". If he zaps us, or "pulls the weeds" too early, he will pull up some wheat too. So it is "for the greater good" to wait patiently on us.

2. And I would argue that God does limit our will in such a way that we were incapable of commiting said sins, but it sounds as if you would like him to do it more. You know what, me too. But you and I are incapable of seeing the "big picture", and it is up to us as well to limit the behaviours of our fellow man that are harmful to others, which is why we have jails, and should try to work for peace.

3. I would also argue that God did design us with close to absolute, indisputable, unavoidable knowledge of his existence, but again, it sounds like you want more. Me too, and that is why I "seek out the truth". I am old, and it seems like I've been in school forever, and I am still searching, and the more I learn the greater the mystery becomes. For some reason the "searching out" is part of the equation. I'm not sure why.

I hope I addressed the scenarios you presented. You sound like you know what you are talking about, but you want more. You want a god that conforms to your image, we all do in some fashion, but He is what He is.

Answer 4

A good Father ,stay around to help raise his children. God is the good Father. You have no clue how often God has saved you from yourself.
Gods love is so great for his children ,our small mind can't comprehend this love.
Many fathers plant the seed then take off,leaving the child to care for its self. God even when don't see him ,he is there.
He has made a way for each of us to follow. Will we follow ? Some do , some don't.
Your father wants the very best for your life. He tells you how to live a good life. Do you follow, or show rebellion and do your own thing?
Many children are rebellious, they have free will ,Father allows. But the life is not the fathers plan for a perfect life.
If you are a parent ,you will understand this better.
With all your heart you love your child. But no matter how much you tell your child ,no, that rebellious child will do it anyway. While your other child will listen every time.
God stays in your life as a loving Father , but one day He will no longer take your rejection.
Just as a natural father will one day have to stop and say to the child "I have done all I can to help you.<><

Answer 5

First of all, Adam had absolute, indisputable, unavoidable knowledge of God's existence, obviously. He was created in a state of total mental perfection. You seem to conveniently overlook that fact. His knowledge of God didn't "force" him to love God; it was a natural outcome of having a fully close and aware relationship with God, and an understanding of God's kindness and care towards him that motivated his love for God. God doesn't need "puppets" or "robots" loving Him or worshipping Him. I would surmise that He wants people to have an intelligent understanding of what exactly fellowship with Him means.
As for the "free will" portion of your "argument", maybe it's just me, I don't know, but I've never understood where people got free-will from God telling Adam and Eve NOT to eat from the "tree" of knowlege of good and evil. That still persists as a mystery in my mind. If I tell someone NOT to do something, I certainly have to no degree somehow implied the opposite of that command. Not=not. Period.

Answer 6

I'm not Pagan, and my name isn't Dan. I live in Taiwan, "pagan dan" is Chinese for "bacon and eggs", and it amuses me to have a pen name.

When you ask "Why is faith better than knowledge?" you imply that we have a choice between selecting one or the other--to the exclusion of the unchosen option.

Faith tempered with knowledge is better than just faith. There is a reason why preachers go to university.

I don't understand the second part of your question, about how the sins of others can affect a person's salvation. Do you mean, for example, a naked woman forcing a man to have lustful thoughts that he then acts upon? Sorry, the decision to sin has got little to do with the woman, and everything to do with the man.

Do you mean, as another example, a decision to use illegal drugs such as cocaine that may eventually kill you? The decision to try drugs has got everything to do with the person making that choice, and very little to do with the drug dealer.

We are free to do whatever we like. A truly religious person would not make choices that would offend God.

I guess I'm not a truly relgious person. I can't say I mind naked women prancing about, but drug dealers are another matter. Maybe I should have chosen better examples to illustrate my point, which is:

We aren't sinners because we have sinned, we sin because we are sinners. Jesus fishes us out our self-made mess.

Answer 7

He did. You need to go back to Genesis and read. Adam DID have absolute, indisputable evidence of the existence of God. For example, Genesis 3:8 says, "And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden."

And God DID give them absolutely free will UNTIL they committed the sin of disobedience, and you must understand that ANY sin ultimately may "effect the salvation of others," because we MUST have a concept of absolute, not relative, justice. If God lets certain sins slide, then where is the standard? It must be absolute, and it is, in fact, absolute. Sin against the smallest of God's commandments, and the penalty is death.

Again, back to the Garden, Adam and Eve had NO OTHER COMMANDMENT. They were "free to do whatever else they liked." They didn't have to worry about a mortgage, health insurance, whether they had saved enough for retirement, the high cost of gas, that their dwelling place needed a new roof, etc. They were in PARADISE, and STILL, they fell, violating the single commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Also, please keep in mind WHY they ate it: yes, it was "pleasing to the eye and good for food," but Satan's words were a temptation, not to their stomach or to their appetite, but to their desire to "be like God." That sin is the sin that drives our fallen world today, and that lie is still Satan's most effective.

The story of Adam and Eve is told so that you understand the insupportability of any arguement that says, "Well, I wouldn't sin if God would only..." Adam and Eve lived in the perfect environment, and still they, with only one commandment to follow, fell.

One could argue at length about why God allowed Satan to enter the garden, but that subject is much better explained by better men than me. I suggest, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, or "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel as comtemporary authors who explore that concept in some depth.

Answer 8

I'll try my best not to use scripture, but just my thoughts.

#1 ... Yes, He could have, and I do believe that if there were absolute proof then we would be like robots. No questions, no faith, no nothing. Love without relationship means nothing.
I'm glad my marriage isn't like that. I'm tickled pink that my husband has the choice to love me and stay with me by faith.

#2 ... To be honest, I really don't understand the 2nd scenario. Our sins can not effect the salvation of another. If that were the case, then there would be no hope of salvation because of the action in the garden.

I hope I answered your question.

EDIT: Yes, I know my husband EXISTS, but only after I met him. It wasn't until then that all I had was faith that one day I would meet him and marry him.
We all know God exists, it's just that not all have met Him.

I know I'm not giving you the answers you're looking for, but let me leave you with this:

Helen Keller, though blind, is considered today to be one of the foremost Christians in America, whose influence for good is tremendous. One day after giving a lecture, one thoughtless boy approached her and said, "Miss Keller, isn't it terrible to be blind?" Miss Keller, with perfect poise answered, "Not half as terrible as to have eyes and not being able to see or believe in God."

`

Answer 9

It was a "bad thing" because God instructed Adam and Eve not to have relations with the people living around, this tree, a family tree, was a race of people of satanic origins through Satan, and knew about good and evil. Eve disobeyed, and bore Cain. She told God she was seduced by him (the serpent) and you will find that in the genealogy of Adam there is no mention of Cain or Able, who were twins. It begins with Seth, because Cain was not Adam's son, and under Hebrew law Able was considered unclean. God wanted to keep the Adamic race pure. He wasn't phased about apples at all.

Answer 10

the only thing you call god has designed is religions that force humanity into a form of slavery... the bible says.."Satan shall be called god on the earth.. and he is the only one to use the word god in speaking of himself...) why is it you only take part of the bible .. that which empowers your Satan god.. but never ever do you take to heart all the condemnation written in the bible and warnings of this behavior? there are several.... Humanity's knowlege has been limited by the religious and the agressive christians .. for every bit of knowlege.. every spark of truth is massacred as was the people who would seek to share it with humanity... every heretic.. every witch.. burned at the stake.. every people.. society and cultrure destroyed by the catholics and christians through war.. was someone or something able to bring knowlege and truth to the human race.. they were often murdered before they could deliver their messages...

Answer 11

Just curious- how would God restrict us when we would infringe on others rights? Freeze us in place, or something, don't you think after awhile we might resent him?
Sins such as lust or coveting could be prevented how? Blinding us when we see something we may desire?
In order to gain a insightful answer to your question, I suggest you read CS Lewis' book, "Mere Christianity." He address this subject and many more.


- He could do this, but I think he wants us to make all choices, not be his puppets on a string.