I'm indebted to another answerer for asking the perennial question: if God made Lucifer, then how can Lucifer be evil if not by God's will. I'm an atheist, so I don't believe any of this actually happened, but I want to get some Christian perspectives. The line is always that Lucifer "became evil when he rebelled against God". What I'd like to know is HOW that's supposed to have happened. If angels don't have free will (I may be wrong there, but I was assuming we were supposed to be special in that regard), then how does something that's created without free will foment a rebellion in, of all places, Heaven? What was the process he used to win angels to his cause? Atheist asking for education here folks, no disrespect or trap intended.
2007-10-12 05:51:24 · 25 answers · asked by mdfalco71 6 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Interesting stuff - thanks folks.
Neutral Christ - Ah, right. That explains an almost-ridiculous amount. Cheers!
Mzjakes - I don't reject anything, and your explanation sounds like the Lucifer of old in the Judaic tradition (as seen in Job), so truly, I don't reject it.
Monkeyman - Thanks for making the choice for BA ridiculously tough. Book of Enoch, you say....Will definitely be checking that out...
Oh and Maid? The Lucifer story is a hobby of mine, and I'm writing a book with him as a central character. Just was curious that so little seems to be known about the mechanisms of his "fall" by people who believe he exists is all - no harm meant.
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to help me out with this.
2007-10-13 12:39:46 · update #1
*drink*
According to Judaic beliefs: 1) Angels do not have Free Will. 2) Satan is "the Adversary" and is part of the plan to refine human souls.
According to Islamic beliefs: 1) Angels do not have Free Will. 2) Satan was NOT an angel he was a Jinn. 3) Jinn's were created before man but do have Free Will.
According to Christan Beliefs: 1) Gee, angels mustuv have had Free Will 'cause god is all good and even though he is all knowing and created everything he would notta made anything that was evil, right?
2007-10-12 05:59:13 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 2⤋
Actually the Bible is pretty vague about this whole thing. In the Book of Job God actually gets Satan to do him some favours as if they are on good terms.
The Book of Enoch (a book of the Apocrypha) tells the full story, basically Lucifer is a little like Prometheus. The story is that a group of angels leave heaven to visit humans and live on Earth for a while in their own community, they teach the humans many skills but stay on Earth too long and can not return to heaven because they have become too much like humans.
The Book of Enoch is a great book to read to find out more about the Abrahamic faiths and is not expensive to buy (chances are there is a really old edition full of "Ye" and "thou" on the Gutenberg Project.
2007-10-12 13:09:40 · answer #2 · answered by monkeymanelvis 7 · 0⤊ 0⤋
lol-I just read a little on Wikipedia and already it says plenty. Along with other stuff I've read/seen. First, the word 'satan' in the Aramaic language meant adversary and he was the adversary of humans, not God. The only time that word is used is in Job and, throughout the story, you can see 'Satan' never does anything w/o discussing it with the oh-so-loving YHWH first.
Now, the actual name Lucifer. It means 'morning star', ironically, the name 'Jesus' has the same meaning. In the Vulgate form, it was Jerome, which also was the referred to Prometheus, the Greek god who gave the gift of fire to man and was punished. Lucifer was also a name used for Babylonian kings and they had built some temple higher than some Jewish holy place, which would be symbolic of trying to place himself above God (pride) (Isaiah 14:12-15) . Ironically, Satan/Lucifer brings the gift of knowledge (also interpreted as light (think Prometheus and fire) and, as a result, gets punished by a more powerful god.
So....obviously, there were others YHWH didn't want us to know about.
:-)
Re: mzJake: you assume all info is rejected immediately? How very Christian of you.
Edit: Thumbs down means I hit a nerve! lol
That, and I know Wikipedia isn't the best source for info but I meant to type the word 'Lucifer' into Google. Um, ffrfr.org is a pretty useful sight. I used to use 'AmericanAtheist.com' but I haven't in a while. I briefly looked at 'evilbible.com' (or org-?)-it seemed well researched but I know there are a million books and websites you can get info from.
2007-10-12 06:10:57 · answer #3 · answered by strpenta 7 · 1⤊ 3⤋
The Christian story of Lucifer rebelling against God and acting in opposition to God's will is a fairy tale based on a mistranslation of an otherwise innocuous verse describing a human King.
The verse describes the King as a 'morning star' which, when translated to Greek becomes 'lucifer'. Somewhere along the line, pagan mythologies melded with christianity to state that this lucifer is satan fallen out of the good graces of the Creator when he rebelled. .
This belief is hogwash and is base idolatry. Biblically speaking, there is an angel known as the satan whose job it is to tempt mankind and then act as prosecutor against man. The satan works at the beck and call of God and can do nothing that is not God's will.
As an atheist, you will disregard this as well, but that's your choice....but you are correct to question the christian view as being illogical.
2007-10-12 06:01:35 · answer #4 · answered by mzJakes 7 · 1⤊ 1⤋
God gave Lucifer a free will. He chose to act against what He knew was in his best interests. Strangely enough He was in the very presence of God witnessing His incredible power and was stupid enough to believe He (a created being) could usurp God (the only uncreated being) and take over God's position in Heaven. There has never been a more foolish act in the history of all creation. Strange as it may seem - a third of the angels were of the same mindset, and are now demons who have rejected a higher calling.
The devil plays on man's free will, and has led many to reject scripture and the truth of Christ's sacrifice so that multitudes are in Hell today waiting judgment because they chose to believe a lie rather than believe the truth.
Lucifer had a big pride problem. Notice the central letter in both sin and pride is "I" -- Here is the account of Lucifer's fall and the reason for it -- Isaiah 14:12-15 - "How art thou fallen from Heaven, O' Lucifer, son of the morning, how art thou cut down to the ground which did weaken the nations. -- For you have said IN YOUR HEART; "I" will ascend into Heaven, "I" will exalt my throne above the stars of God, "I" will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the North, "I" will ascend above the heights of the clouds, "I" will be like the Most High. -- YET thou shalt be brought down to Hell; to the sides of the pit."
Notice the word "I" continually in His speech. The same problem exists in us. We say that no matter what our conscience tells us "I" will do what I good and well please. "I" will refuse to believe the gospel. "I" will live my life the way "I" want to without these evangelical do-gooders. "I" will proclaim that God's word is false and lead many astray by my life and testimony. "I" will not be brainwashed but will depend on my mortal understanding of immortal and infinite things. Our free will is a gift from God just as Lucifer's was.
It's what we do with it that will determine our eternal destiny.
It is certain Satan will not tell you anything that has an inkling of truth in it because the Bible declares him to be a liar and the Father of all lies.
The glorious truth is that God is willing to reveal Himself to all who are tired of listening to Lucifer.
I made that decision over 33 years ago and never looked back. My life is filled with peace and joy and certainty of eternal salvation. What a way to live!!!
2007-10-12 06:10:55 · answer #5 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 1⤋
Unfortunately, the fact that we are created by God does not prevent us from becoming evil. God gives us free will and the power to choose. God gave us this power to choose because he knows that love is only real when it is a free choice; otherwise, it is coercion. Lucifer chose not to love god, and to rebel against him, so he became evil as a result of his choices. And yes, according to church tradition, angels do have free will.
2007-10-12 05:59:07 · answer #6 · answered by Bella 3 · 2⤊ 1⤋
Here's a quote that hopefully sheds light to help you:
re: "Satan, man of the hour":
“… a sardonic chuckle slipped out across the waves of space, striking an uncanny awe in the heart of every living thing… Again, that taunting laugh… and a deep-ringing voice so mighty… that it seemed to dominate… spoke to the Presence of the Most High.
‘O God of the mighty cosmos, come forth now and prove your dominion. I, Lucifer, defy your authority; I have usurped your power. I am the greatest force in the universe… I have deceived… until I have grown strong enough to openly challenge you. What have you to say? Do you acknowledge me as your superior?’
The incredible stillness… its very act of insistent calmness, to combat the fiery thunderous voice of defiance. And then, as though proceeding forth on fluttering wings of light came the almost inaudible message:
‘Lucifer… the pride of power within you has blinded you to that Law to which we are both subject- that which exalts itself shall be cast down- and so not I but that Law shall answer you. Hereafter you shall be known as Satan… The power you have shall not be taken from you but your field of action shall be limited… until you learn the meaning of the humility… and are willing to reunite with me and work as one.’
… The Law had spoken – Lucifer had become a prisoner…
‘… and in the meantime, Satan is giving you the ‘run-around’… Do not misunderstand… I am not referring to that much-characterized individual dressed in red tights, with a pitchfork in his hand. I refer to a force – an aggressive force that is predominant in the average human mind today… The power of selfishness and greed which Satan represents has become so generally expressed…
the human race has practically lost sight of those Cosmic characteristics which compose its inherent birthright...’”
2007-10-12 09:51:11 · answer #7 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
apparently angels do have free will. I was told that Satan became crazily jealous of God's power and wanted to rise above him; so as a result he was thrown out of heaven ..and from then on tried to deceive people that God dosnt exist..Its known as "the fall of mankind"! When sin entered the earth by eve taking the apple from the serpant. (which was actually Satan in disguise tempting her)
2007-10-12 07:06:06 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
Not trying to sound jerky, but angels do have a freewill. If Lucifer rebelled against God, then obviously God allowed him to do so.
God could have made all of his creation to love him perfectly and never know anything else but him and him alone, God did not want that, God wanted us to seek after him out of our own free will, because he us to truly want to be with him. He did not want some manufactured love.
2007-10-12 06:00:55 · answer #9 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 1⤋
the situation of the single-third of the angels of God who fell from Heaven with Lucifer are maximum actual thoughts of fact. the different angels of God who fell with Lucifer, are what all of us understand at present as demon spirits. they are purely as plenty alive as devil himself. those demon spirits are people who're inflicting all of the evil and chaos that is going on in the international at present. And a genuine Christian has to have know-how of the genuine existence of those demon spirits. For if we don't have such know-how, and have know-how of the means and authority that Jesus gave us over them by using his call, then they'll finally harm us. Our imaginative and prescient of devil from Paradise may well be forgotten approximately forevermore. For devil will in no way returned have everywhere in paradise. however the only place that devil or any of the angels that fell with him from Heaven will could desire to look forward to, is the fires of Hell.
2016-12-18 05:38:55 · answer #10 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋