Have you ever lost an argument with a Jehovah's Witness?

Question

I have. I was told to find ONE verse that suggests the Trinity, and I couldn't, not because the concept wasn't there, but because in order to get to the Trinity, we had to agree on Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God. Since we couldn't even get past the one verse I provided that said "I and the Father are One, (I just picked one, there's a bunch of them), Trinity was off the radar, and I capitulated.

Your story?

Interesting, we have a few arguments already about the divinity of Jesus, which is the same thing I got bogged down in. To me this verifies the necessity of discussing Jesus as God BEFORE we discuss Trinity -- not to mention the Holy Spirit as God.

Hess, put the label that you like on the question. Argue, debate, discuss, whatever, you know what I mean. So does everybody else.

And Hess, you are also arguing (oops) from the necessity of discussing (there, that's better) Jesus as God the Son prior to any discussion of the Trinity.

You've moved unity to one of purpose rather than essence, by the way, and the NWT pushes it right over to that point. But that's beyond the scope of my question.

TeeM, you're even taking my own intent out of context. You're skilled at this.

Simon Peter, thank for telling me to pray for them, but that had nothing to do with my question.

Answer 1

Christianity is not about winning arguments. It's about pointing people to Christ. It's the Holy Spirit who does the work of conversion.

Your point about JW's being totally unable to see who Jesus was and, more importantly, who he is now, is the stumbling block. And you're absolutely right - you will get nowhere until they accept the divinity of Jesus Christ and realise they must worship him as Lord and Saviour. You and I are unable to do that. Just pray for the Holy Spirit to enter their lives, open their eyes to the loveliness of the risen Christ, unstop their ears so they can actually listen and soften their hearts to make them receptive.

My story: Recently I invited two JW's into my home and they gave me their prepared speech about living forever on a paradise earth and how they were the only true religion. Time and time again I tried to turn the discussion round to the person of Christ. They kept returning to the Watchtower magazine and the article they wanted to talk about. I got as far as getting their agreement to come back the following week to discuss specific questions about the person of Christ. Tragically, one of them died in a car crash a few days later. I sent a card of sympathy and left a message for the other Witness to contact me. He never did.

You are absolutely right to say that the subject of the Trinity is a no-go area until they understand who Jesus Christ is.

Answer 2

The vast majority of the time, you will end up in a stale mate because most JWs are sold out, hook, line, and sinker that they have the truth and need to look no further. The best we can hope to do is to plant a seed and pray that the Holy Spirit will make it grow.

On the other hand, I have worked with DA'd JWs who have told me that, even though they were jumping thru all of the org's hoops, there were some serious doubts that they pushed to the back of their minds. The consequences for voicing those doubts are just too severe. But hearing some come out and admit that is encouraging, that there is hope for some, even if they must deny it while they are still in the org.

It used to upset me so much that my parents are still so sold out--after 35 years and in spite of being new JWs when the 1975 fiasco reared it's ugly head. Worse, my father is the most opiniated, stubborn, and closed-minded person you'd ever meet. There's just no getting thru to that guy! For my own peace of mind, I have had to tell myself that, if and when the Holy Spirit is ready to call them out of the darkness and into the light of the true gospel, then He will. It's not going to happen before that and there is nothing I can do about that.

So you move on to the next, planting the seeds as you go, knowing that a few will fall on fertile soil. All of the fancy arguments in the world are to no avail if the Holy Spirit isn't working to make those seeds grow. So do what you can. Don't stress or argue. Just pray, pray, and pray some more for that individual, because for many of the ex-cultists I've worked with, someone was on the sidelines doing just that on their behalf.

I'll say one thing on their behalf: I'd much rather talk to a JW then to an Atheist/Agnostic/Pagan. At least the JWs accept the Bible as infallible, so you have an accepted foundation to build upon.

Answer 3

If a lack of response to questions counts as a win, then I’ve had a few.

JW’s are bible literalists. If it’s not plainly spelled out word for word, then they refuse to believe it. There’s so much that I could go into proving the stupidity of this but I simply don’t feel like it. I’ll just say that after going through a historical education of how and from whom we got the bible, the facts contradict JW beliefs.

The Church has always believed in and taught the divinity of Christ. All the historical evidence proves this. Some of the points that I’ve brought up which returned me no response (win?) were simple questions like, if Jesus is not God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, how could he forgive sins? If He is not God, how could He be our judge? I asked this in conjunction with citing the ridiculous JW belief that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel. My point was that if He is an angel, that makes Him a created being, like us, therefore, how does a created being have power and authority that no other created being has ever been given?

One answer I received was that He had been given ALL authority, which was supposed to answer that. That’s when I lowered the boom with my next question:

If Jesus is only a created being, an archangel, how could He be worshiped?

There are several instances in the bible where Jesus is worshiped. On scripture in particular is Revelation 5: 11-14, “I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless 5 in number,
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and they cried out in a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing."
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Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."
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The four living creatures answered, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.”

Notice the angels and elders were crying out with blessings and honor to both God and the Lamb (Jesus). Then, in verse 14, the elders fell down and “worshiped”.

If Jesus is only an archangel, then any worship of Him would be idolatry. You cannot worship a created being, not matter how highly exalted. By JW beliefs, they’ve just turned all of the angels and elders in those verses into idolaters, right in God’s face, no less!

God bless.

Answer 4

I have never engaged in an argument, debate or discussion with a JW. Why? Because I myself was raised in a cult, and I know that their proselytizers are so thoroughly focussed and programmed that they don't even *hear* what others say that doesn't square with what their programme says is true. I don't believe in wasting my time, so I just walk away. Or in the case of cold-callers, don't open the door. They have nothing I want, and I know they won't listen to me--or even be able to hear me.

I know because, although in a different organization, I was deeply involved in the same sort of thing. Anyone who doesn't agree is "misguided", "decieved" or just plain wrong. They only are quiet long enough to start talking again, and they're only thinking about what they're going to say next--not really listening.

As far as the Trinity goes, if it doesn't exist, why did Jesus tell his disciples in the Great Commission to baptise believers "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" if there were no such thing? Jesus' word is good enough for me. And of course I have enough first-hand evidence from my own walk with God of their existence that I don't need "convincing" by a Jehovah's Witness.

Answer 5

Dear Kj7gs,

I've had plenty of discussions with them but whenever the jw did not like the direction the conversation was heading they would say "I'm out of time. We'll have to discusss this next time."

Nina is right about the concept of the Trinity being all over the Bible. The word itself is not used but that just means that the Holy Spirit reveals it to those who seek to know the Truth and the father of lies blinds the eyes of those who belong to him.

Check out a wonderful chart called One Truth Exposes a Thousand Lies - Traits Shared Between Jehovah and Jesus as http://www.soulright.com

For His glory,
JOYfilled

Answer 6

If the concept is all ove the bible , then why Jews don´t accept a three Gods in heaven or at least two if they don´t accept Jesus?

and why verses was added to support a true as soos as you say a lie to prove something your statement become false, the verse of 1 John 5:7 three in heavens is false

Answer 7

The question 'does John 10:30 suggests a trinity'?

The answer is no. At best it only suggest a duality and not a trinity. Thus your 'one' verse does not meet the requirement you agreed to.

The next question which you do not want to go into is:

Does John 10:30 teach that Jesus is equal to God and thus making him God?

Does Jesus being the essence of God, mean that Jesus is God?


‘ESSENCE’
MW dictionary, essence: "the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as OPPOSED to its existence (caps by me)

: one that possesses or exhibits a quality in abundance AS IF in concentrated form " (caps by me)

The word "essence" means that Jesus is the picture of God or has the qualities of God.

The word itself does not mean "Jesus is God".

.

Answer 8

God does not forsake His children no matter how they are attacked by Satan and his organizations and servants.

Attention Hot is learning, I noticed, but Still not quite there. Eventually AH will break out of the self imposed paradigm.

Many Christians do not believe the Trinity as it is taught in some churches.

If Jesus was first born and the very essence of God and the Holy Spirit is likewise this does not make them the same being. (John 1:1-3, Genesis 1:2-3) These show Jesus was the Spirit of God? Simple?
So Jesus is the Spirit of God? Even in the NWT?
Jesus is sent from God and is the Spirit of God.... anything else?

essence or geist - Do not think of playing word games - you fool yourself. Ultimately the pharisaical word play falls short, this is self deception as below.

Answer 9

The teaching is there the word is not.It is a concept put together from the teaching of the Bible.
Gen 1 "Let us create man in our image.."
Who's the us? You already read the Holy Spirit was hovering.John1, Collosians 1,and Hebrews 1 all teach that Jesus was creating along with the Father.Philippians says "Although Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to God ,He emptied himself for our sakes.Peter says in Acts 5 to Ananias," You have lied to the Holy Spirit...you have not lied to man ,but to God."
Am I wrong? Not unless scripture is.And it is not.

Answer 10

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Now, CJ? Let's look at chapter 10 of John.

In verse 32, in talking to the Pharisees, Jesus says 'I displayed to you many fine works from FROM THE FATHER." Why did he not stop at the end of the first part and just say many fine works. PERIOD. Why did he add "from the FATHER"?

In verse 33 it is the Pharisees accusing Jesus of making himself God. It is not Jesus himself saying it. Jump to verse 36 you will read from the KJV: "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God"

As famous verse :30. "I am the Father are one" If that is proof that Jesus and his Father are one and the same I wonder what Jesus meant when praying on behalf of his disciples at John 17:21,22 - Also from the KJV - "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." Was Jesus here referring to some massive Godhead??

Demonslayer? Angels have never become human? You do know about the two materialized angels that came to drag Lot and his two daughters out of Soddom and Gomorrah. And the Angels that materialized and had relations with human women and produced the Nephilim? And the angels who appeared to Mary Magdalene at Jesus tomb?