Taiwan Independance?

Question

I have little patience for people who insist they are taiwanese, they are independant, and that they are in no way related to the chinese.

Taiwan cannot be independant for many reasons. Although it has its own growing economy and is efficient in many ways, it isn't a country. The UN has been rejecting Taiwan because of this reason. It is stupid to think that United States will go to war for Taiwan if China does feel the need to use military. United States and China are both part of the forever members of UN, they would not go to war with each other because of that and many other reasons.

Also, if the taiwanese are not chinese, how come they write and speak chinese? Don't give me crap about Taiwanese and how it's a language, because it's really Min nan, which is from the Fujian province of China.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the subject as it is a very controversial topic. Have reasonable reasons and proof.

The thing is a lot of other people who aren't Chinese or Taiwanese don't fully understand the matter. I agree, the fact they speak chinese does not make them chinese.

However, it's insulting that you would put the persecution of the Falungongs onto here because it really has very little to do with this topic.

As well, it is not a religion but a cult. They have done many things to irritate the government, and a good government will stop it. They are disrupting peace and so much more. Outside of China, it is hard for people to truly understand their deeds.

Before the current president, there was little claims to independance because they know, we know it cannot happen. There are many places where you can find China's proof of claim to Taiwan, but nobody bothers to go read those because nowadays, all North Americans can think about is freedom and how China is not free.

Before anybody makes an opinion about the topic, they need to understand it. I don't think you understand.

Actually, I feel I need to clear up my statements a little more.

I am merely saying, it is getting annoying that they insist they have the USA behind them, when it is obvious they can't. It would be too much to risk for the USA to go to war with China.

As well, it is annoying that people should say that China has very poor human rights, because they have different views on it. It is not that it is very poor, it is we see human rights in different views. Many people say it is unjust for the Chinese to make their prisoners work. I am sorry, but if you had to board someone who has killed your mother for life, would you happily board them for free of charge? I believe the idea of making prisoners work is a great idea and should be used throughout the world.

It is also unfair of you to assume that just because Taiwan is democratic, it is better than China. It isn't. Many of you do not know the conditions in Taiwan. They tell the world one thing, but it is another inside.

Answer 1

I have little patience for self-righteous Chinese who claim that Taiwanese people should say that they are Chinese or that Taiwan is part of China.
Yes, they are ethnically Chinese (hwa ren 華人) no one disputes that. There are also many Chinese in other countries as well. They are a majority in Singapore. They are also signifigant populations in other countries; almost 8 million in Indonesia, 7 million in Malaysia, 7 million in Thailand, over 3 million in the USA.
Also, no one disputes that the Taiwanese language is from Fujian. Taiwanese people do not deny this.

But get a clue: Ethnicity and language does not equate to a right to claim territory. If that were true, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and every other English speaking country would have Great Britain aiming missiles at them and keeping them locked out of the international community.

Taiwan could indeed be independent if it weren't blocked by the US. They have every legal right to independence.
Taiwan independence is not independence from the PRC; it is independence from the ROC. There is only one China and that is the PRC. Taiwan is not part of the PRC.

What you and your comrades need to get through your heads is that China has no claim to Taiwan whatsoever. China is irrelevant to the Taiwan question! China legally signed Taiwan away in 1895 in perpetuity.

The US holds the legal deed to the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan. They hope to keep it that way and seem to think that the arrangement is working.

China is making trouble for itself by being clumsy in handling Taiwan relations. They squeeze Taiwan's international space too hard and the Taiwanese react. Is it a big surprise? If Taiwan makes some big, destabilizing moves and upsets the "status quo" The Chinese will have themselves to blame.

As for the existential ability to actually mount an invasion and take over Taiwan, China just doesn't have that capability. They can do damage only. And then the Americans will show up and drive them back.

Why do the American's always stick their nose into the Taiwan issue?

Because ever since WW2, America has been the principal occupier of Taiwan. Since the Treaty of San Francisco in 1952, America holds the legal title to the Taiwan territory. That's why the ROC is in such trouble and if the ROC is in trouble look how weak the PRC's claim is!

By way of historical background, Taiwan and associated lands, also called "Formosa and the Pescadores", were permanently ceded by Qing Dynasty China to Imperial Japan via Articles 2b and 2c of the Treaty of Shimonoseki in May 8, 1895. following the Treaty of Shimonoseki, Japan did exercise internationally sanctioned, legal sovereignty over Taiwan and held de jure title to its territory untill it was ceded in the Treaty of San Francisco in 1952.

Pursuant to the SFPT, Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and title to its territory. Article 2(b) of the SFPT read: "Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores."
By fleeing to occupied Taiwan in December 1949, the ROC had already become a government in exile.
Under international law, there are no actions which a government in exile can take in its current location of residence in order to be recognized as the local legitimate government. Hence, Taiwan's current international problems have arisen from the fact that the ROC government-in-exile is not internationally recognized as the legitimate government of Taiwan. The ROC should be dissolved and succeeded by a new government of Taiwan.


While Article 2(b) of the SFPT did not designate a recipient of "all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores," Article 23 of the SFPT designated the US as "the principal occupying power" with respect to the territories covered by the geographical scope of the SFPT, including "Formosa and the Pescadores."

Following the entry into force of the SFPT, the ROC government continued to occupy Taiwan under the authority of the US (the principal occupying power)

,The SFPT did not terminate the agency relationship between the US, the principal, and the ROC, the agent, with regard to the occupation and administration of Taiwan.

Following the entry into force of the SFPT on April 28, 1952, the ROC did not exercise sovereignty over Taiwan and did not have title to its territory.

China bases their claims to Taiwan on the Cairo Declaration. What a flimsy thing to base a claim on! It isn't even written on paper or signed by anyone. What a joke! You use a radio address as proof while you ignore a ratified international treaty that contradicts it!

Listen carefully: The so-called Cairo Declaration was merely an unsigned press communique which does not carry any legal status at all, while the Potsdam Proclamation and Instrument of Surrender are simply modus vivendi and armistice which function as temporary records and do not bear legally binding power to transfer sovereignty.

Good faith of interpretation ONLY takes place at the level of treaties.
The retrocession proclaimed by ROC in 1945 was legally null and impossible since Taiwan was still de jure part of Japan before the post-war San Francisco Peace Treaty came into effect on April 28, 1952. After the San Francisco Peace Treaty came into effect, the sovereignty of Taiwan naturally belonged to the Taiwanese people and none other, but was temporarily held in trust by the USA.


From 1945 to the present, Taiwan has been an occupied territory of the US since they are the principal occupying power. Currently, Taiwan is an occupied territory of the US, and Taiwan's statehood status is disputed and uncertain. Neither the SFPT, the Treaty of Taipei nor any other subsequent legal instruments after 1952 have changed the status of Taiwan.

I think it should be clear now that the US is OBLIGATED to defend Taiwan, since it is US insular territory! That's why the Taiwan Relations Act is a DOMESTIC law of the United States. Get it now?

It can be seen that the US does not have the best interests of the Taiwanese people at heart in their underhanded handling of this occupation.
If only the US had done right thing when they had the chance. ...
Instead they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

The international community does not recognize the ROC on Taiwan as a state, because it does not hold the territorial title to Taiwan. In the words of Chiang Kai-shek himself in 1950: "The ROC is a perished nation"


The only country which has the authority or power to grant the Taiwanese people the self-determination which is their right, is acting in a grossly negligent fashion. The US should be supporting the Taiwanese in creating a legitimate civil government. This should have been done in the 1940's or 1950's at the latest.

The US holds all the cards, but won't admit it openly.

This is a strange and confusing state of affairs, but one thing is abundantly clear:

CHINA HAS NO LEGAL CLAIM TO TAIWAN WHATSOEVER

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strawb3rry_kiwi,
You have said:
"There are many places where you can find China's proof of claim to Taiwan, but nobody bothers to go read those"

If you have such proof, then please present it. At least a link or a reference. I assert that no such proof exists.

Answer 2

Well, If Americans aren't really english why do they speak and write in english? The reality is that Taiwan is independent in all but name, but it will never officially be independent because China is too much of a global power for anybody to stand up for a little tiny island located less than 100 miles from the mainland. However, your reasoning is flawed, for a time during the cold war era most of the allies did consider taiwan to be the real china and communist china to be just a fake government. Put your head around that one. Anyway, by your logic that would mean China isn't really a country, because people said Taiwan was. I agree that Taiwan will never truly be free, because China is too powerful for other countries to defend against them when they are so close to the Island... Then again a crazy pirate was able to do it a long time ago, maybe I should give the folks in Taiwan more credit.

Answer 3

Singapore should not have a stance in this issue because Taiwan had already prospered in their own system for the last what 40 yrs? a breakaway island which prospered from the mainland (sounds familiar?) who is Singapore to deny a nation's (which has a history far longer) aspiration from Independence? the question of whether the Taiwanese ppl wants one must then be put throuh a referendum... let the ppl decide, not some one far or near outside no matter big or small. Funny ppl this politicians... dont support for their Independence but Singapore has a Military training base in Taiwan.... looks like betting on all horses or spreading the risks.....

Answer 4

I favor Taiwan independents but I don't think the US should risk a major confrontation with China over the issue. The world is not a fair place and it is not up the US to right all wrongs. Given enough time China will become a more reasonable country so over the long run some accommodation can probably be reached. The US should make it clear to Taiwan if they precipitate a crisis we will not back them.

Answer 5

Taiwan is independent from China. To say that someone who is Taiwanese is not related to the Chinese is incorrect. There are many cultural similarities, but there are differences as well.

For example, free thought is not suppressed on Taiwan as it is in the People's Republic of China. Examples of this are the way followers of Falun Gong are treated, where as in Taiwan, these followers are not persecuted. Human rights in the People's Republic are terrible as well, where as Taiwan, despite its dark past, does not have such a record now.

Next, Taiwan is democratic. All above a certain age get a vote in who is to be leader. The Peoples Republic, is not a democracy, as is more like the dictatorship Taiwan was in the past.

The UN has had to reject Taiwan's applications for membership as the Peoples Republic as blocked this membership. Remember, once Taiwan held the UN seat for all of China.

Answer 6

I have little patience for people who insist that the Taiwanese people belong to the PRC, that Taiwan is a part of the PRC, and the Taiwanese are in every way related to the PRC Chinese.

China ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895 in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. Up to the 1940's and indeed through the WWII period, Taiwan was a part of Japanese territory.

Despite the Cairo Declaration, Potsdam Proclamation, and Japanese Surrender documents, none of the Allies recognized any transfer of the sovereignty of Taiwan to China upon the Oct. 25, 1945, surrender of Japanese troops in Taipei.

Indeed, the date of Oct. 25, 1945, only marks the beginning of the military occupation of Taiwan.

Then in the post-war peace treaties, Japan ceded Taiwan (effective April 28, 1952), but no recipient country was named. Hence, in a nutshell, the sovereignty of Taiwan was not transferred to China.

Conclusion: Taiwan does not belong to China. Taiwan is not a part of Chinese territory.

Answer 7

speaking same language does not bar independence of one country. if people of Taiwan want to be independent ,let them be allowed/ continued as independent.UN,US,China and any other countries have no business in this matter.

Answer 8

If China remains united it'll be a problem for the west

Speaking of rivaling