This is hate speech. Will the respondents educate themselves and apologise.?

Question

I started crying when I read this:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ak9UeywjbxQhvzBGA5_QUIPty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071009061709AA84FMA&show=7#profile-info-h8IV8scUaa

I actually got so upset that I vomited. I'm still shaking. To think that I am moving heaven and earth, like this WOMAN, to be recognised for who I am and to see HER dumped on by so many people, so many women who should know better. On a "feminist" list, no less!

So, will you make an effort not to judge ALL women by their bodies?
Will you educate yourself on trans issues?
Will you express support in some way for THE MOST disadvantaged group of women on the planet?
Will you honestly examine the reason that you are uncomfortable with recognizing her for the woman that she is fighting like he!! to be seen as and who she has always been?
And will you apologize for your arrogance in believing that you know more about who she is than she does?

Please use female pronouns when referring to her. Anything less is wrong.

shivers...No that's what people BELIEVE. Your crotch does not define you. A penis is a body part. It does not determine who you are. Period. Plus, NO ONE has ever seen it.
How would you like to be seen as a vaj!na? You are more than her crotch.
She should be seen as a courageous woman overcoming a horrifying deformity that causes ignorant people to see her as male.
Because that's the MEDICAL truth. The rest is just bigotry and ignorance.

random Thank you! You are so right!

prozac At my school when I transitioned, there were no less than FIFTY women who thought like you. We didn't have a policy...until they protested on my behalf.

The hormones can truly work wonders, but they only work on the transitioning woman. Everybody else has to rely on education.

Melimar, The hormones DESTROY the penis testes...they call it chemical castration for a REASON, honey. She has no more business in a mans room than you do. Quit confusing a hormonally withered pen!s owned by a woman's mind in a body undergoing a female puberty with a man. It only makes you look ignorant.

Tera Its not her job to be responsible for their discomfort. Their feelings, their resposibility. If people are aware of her then that's enough to trigger their hate She did nothing, plus, the fact that HR is involved means she is doing the right things.
Stop blaming the victim, K?
Otherwise, good response. Thanks

Baba Yaga Thank you.

Tera SHE is a Transexual WOMAN, not a transexual. Do not reduce her to a medical condition. Objectification has no place here.

unnamed, Good post. Please don't use the word tranny. It's our version of the N word. She is a woman born transsexual. Please don't take her womanhood away from her, K?

Emily...read and learn. Her restroom rights are protected for a REASON. Who will you exclude next? Women in wheelchairs? Black women?
It's been done before.
Oh, forcing her to use the men's room BREAKS THE LAW in 9 states and MANY cities...about 1/3 of the US by population. Think about that.

waswis I agree. Part of why this was so shocking was because I've been surrounded by the good people that you mention. Seeing how bad some women like me have it just took me by surprise.

madpol, you just dismissed me entirely. Why did you even bother?
Dude you seriously need to get a clue and stop spweing stuff you got from watching "born in the wrong body" cable TV specials. May I recommend the NCLR Website?
Oh, and use the right pronouns. If you can't get your facts straight, then at least show some manners. You are just showing your true colors by referring to a woman as he, and spouting bogus factoids that aren't supported by the research.

Get a clue, K?

YERA No. Not true. trans women are a disempowered group comapred to nontrans women. We would not be having this conversation if the trans woman were disabled- or Black. But its the power difference and the fact that the trans woman's rights and basic safety are being pitted against the "comfort" (code for bigotry and ignorance) of the nontrans woman. Plus, the trans woman isn't being abusive like the respondents and asker were. There IS a real difference, so your point is moot, and Iit is terrible that you are defending bigots and their ahem "right" to comfort over safety.

Tera The use of transsexual as a noun is objectifying. Your denial is understandable, if meaningless and inapproprate. Please don't be defensive when your being called out...it smacks of cis gender privilege. That said, you have some good details, which is why I'm taking the time to educate you. You have demonstrated your worth to me in that department.
:)

Rebel F Well said! This is why we need to be vigilant in the restrooms. The stick figure is not a magic attacker repellent or guarantee of safety.

The trick is to assess behavor, not appearance. That way, if a woman (trans or not) is threatening anybody, she can be reported and removed, If a "man" uses this to enter a women's room and explains him/herself, takes pains to allay the discomfort of others, and is demonstrably nonthreatening, I don't see the problem. But I doubt that this would happen. A man bent on causing difficulty will make that very clear quickly, and help can be summoned. A nonpassing transwoman will be KEENLY aware of her appearance, and will modify her behavior accordingly, trust me.
Behavior, not appearance is key.

Rebel, that ID is called a "carry letter." While many cops will NOT honor it. some will. They are often written by a doctor, I asked a cop at my school to write mine. It carries (pardon the pun) more weight.

rebel, I just read your take on politeness. I agree completely. That's why I'm investing all this time on my question. It's a chance to educate, and speak for the trans woman who was denied a voice by the original questioner.
The problem with politeness is when it becomes an OBLIGATION. The transwoman in question shouldn't be burdened further. It is to her advantage to educate, but trust me, it gets old real fast. Plus, people get defensive and stop listening real fast. Look at Tera's responses for a classic example, or Melimar's response for an egregiously BAD example.
Politeness isn't enough. It has to be met with a willingness to learn and the restraint not to become defensive and Make It All About Them.
Looking at the two, Tera seems like she's capabler of learning, while Melimar just swung by to tell me off. Either way, I think I'm an example of someone willing to stop and educate.
Thank you for meeting me halfway. It makes all the grief worth it.

Shingosh... HUH?

Answer 1

I agree with you COMPLETELY. The persons who wrote that obviously haven't a clue about the issue of gender. It is not about the body, it is about the person.

WAKE UP WORLD. That gal can pee in my loo any day.

Answer 2

I agree that transsexuals should be able to use the bathroom or other facility they think they belong in.

But what worries me is that this could be abused by perverts in the future. What's to stop a fully masculine man from barging into a female communal shower at the gym and telling them he's about to begin hormone therapy, and that he's really a woman? I doubt many men would actually do this, but it could conceivably happen. I do not know how this works with transsexuals, but for the sake of others around them in situations like this while they are still pre-op, there should be some sort of identification or permit to prove that they really have undergone all the psychological evaluations or whatever and that they genuinely are trans, and have no interest in the people who are biologically the same gender as they. Otherwise any old pervert could abuse society's growing sensitivity towards transsexuals.

I don't think a person is justified in being freaked out by having a genuinely trans person in the same bathroom/locker room with them, but I DO think they are justified in being freaked out if they aren't sure if the person is really trans. And as you've stated, a trans person is not *legally* obligated to inconvenience themselves for another person's comfort, but it's really only polite of them to talk to the people that they will likely be using the bathroom with about transsexual issues otherwise everyone will just continue to be ignorant.

Answer 3

You're being a bit of a drama queen, dear.

I wouldn't call it "Hate Speech." Even though a lot of "Feminists" seem to think that Misandry is part of the package. It's more like Panic Speech.

"Eek! There's a man in the Women's Restroom!" Doing his thing behind a closed stall door. It is something that's disturbing to a majority of women, and to that extent, a legitimate greivance. Education, and getting people to think things through is the answer. Calling it "Hate" just doesn't help.

A lot of men would be disturbed if the guy used their restroom. And that might actually place him in danger.

Gender reassignment is relatively new. Not much more than 50 years old and it's not all that common still. It's going to take people time to get used to it. Case Law and Common Sense say that pre-op transgenders should use the restroom of the gender they are becoming. But, a little discretion really wouldn't hurt.

Vomiting is a serious overreaction. Calling people "Haters" is counterproductive. And I wouldn't call m to f TG's "the most disadvantaged group of women on the planet." Having started as men, they probably make more money than those women who started life that way.

TG's are misunderstood and even abused and barely tolerated within the GLBT community. That's a serious problem, and it needs to be addressed in some serious ways.

But, the kind of hysterical ranting this question represents is not part of the solution.

edit:
At least no one has called you a troll yet. I gave you a straight answer in case you're legit. But this looks suspiciously like a troll provocation post.

Answer 4

I can empathise with the fact that trans just want to be treated as human, and they are. Their feelings are no less important than anyone elses and I do not agree at all with how people called the woman in the other thread an 'it'.
One thing that I do not agree with is the managements decision that all women who are not happy with the arrangement have to leave while the tran has the bathroom to herself.
Only because (and I hope that you can understand) a tran who is pre-op still physically is a male and that's what people see. We can't see inside of people, into their minds and souls and know about everything that another person is feeling and thinking and that unfortunately extends to men or women who may feel that they are a different gender inside.

If I were to start dressing as a man, and genuinely felt as though I was a man inside and wanted to use the men's bathroom, I try to understand their feelings too.
Personally, if a pre or post op tran wished to use the ladies bathroom, I wouldn't bat an eyelid.
A few weeks ago that actually happened, and I just had a chat with the lady about something trivial, hardly noticed until I saw the chin stubble and large adam's apple. But even then I was fine.

Sorry, but while I see trans as themselves, I still not agree with managements decision. Besides, I was not one of those who wrote in that other thread and I do try to accept people as they are, am making the effort. But why do trans not make the effort to understand either? I'm not trying to stir any trouble and your focus should be on those who are totally ignorant, at least I am trying. But it's a two way street and I will no longer try if someone else is going to get so upset over absolutely everything. Ever watched black militant guy on balls of steel?

Answer 5

The saddest thing about society is that, they are not in tuned with the changing of times, let alone the changing of the genders. I have entered into night clubs where the Women's restroom would have a line that seemed like a mile long. I as a woman, who couldn't hold my bladder for too long, went into the Men's bathroom and used their "closed" stalls, while the Men peed in their own standing urinals. Heck, if you've seen one male part, you've seen them all. I am pretty sure there have been MANYwomen who waltzed into the men's restroom because they didn't want to nurse their bladders while waiting in the mile long line for theirs.

I truly don't know what the big deal is, if a tranny went into a women's restroom. People who have a phobia against that should be lucky they don't start making restrooms for all genders to use. Then what? Restroom phobia? Probably.

Answer 6

The world is not a compassionate place for transsexuals, or gays, or anyone who is "different" from the "average joe." It is sad, really, that people don't seem to realize that we all have more in common than we do differences. We're all human beings, we all have needs, fears, desires, we all feel pain, we all want to experience joy. We feel emotion. All of this and more, and these are the things that should connect us, unite us, despite what we look like, what gender we are, what race we may be, or what our sexual orientation is. The thing is, in the situation you are commenting on, is that it's hard sometimes for people to know how to accept something that they've never been around before, never experienced before, or that they have "issues" with themselves. It's not ideal, but it is, in a sense somewhat understandable. The woman who wrote the question may not be comfortable with the idea because she doesn't understand what is going on inside the person who is transsexual. Perhaps she thinks this person is being perverted, or using the dress as a means to see other women using the rest room. (I suppose stranger things could happen!) We all tend to fear, to some degree, something we don't understand. An anatomical man in women's clothing is confusing to most. It's not something we see every day. It's hard, sometimes, to overcome that fear (fear of the unknown.) It would be great if everyone thought to educate themselves on others' issues, but a lot of us just haven't taken the time to do that. Hopefully the transsexual in this situation will also try to put herself into others' shoes, as well, and try to understand where the reactions she is getting are coming from. A little tolerance, compassion, and education (all around) would be a good thing for all of us to practice.

My opinion.

EDIT: I am not objectifying her. And, if she has no responsibility to be aware of or care about others' feelings (as you say) , then why should we be aware of or care about hers? Does she not want to be a part of society? Consideration and empathy go BOTH WAYS.

Answer 7

As one of the respondents to this, I don't feel what I posted was wrong. I am sorry if it did offend, however I just pointed I think that if the anatomy is still there, this person should use the men's room.

I used to work retail, and I worked with and for all kinds of people. I used to help this person shop all the time - I loved her. I used to tell her it wasn't fair that she got better boobs than me in a day, and they're still bigger! She thought that was funny.

The corporate world is different though. While I do applaud this company for being accommodating and open-minded about the situation, I do think that the comfort of the other women who use the facilities should be considered.
People go to Human Resources for the dumbest issues - I can't imagine the reaction when she first entered the ladies' room. But I do think that if enough people are NOT comfortable, then something should be done to accommodate them.

That being said, I will stick by what I wrote. I do still feel that until she is "post-op", she should use the men's room. That wasn't arrogance on my part - to me it's about simple anatomy!
Again, I am sorry if my opinion offends you - but take into account that is just that - an opinion.

EDIT - Is your way of educating talking down to those who don't agree? You singled me out three times and berated me - is that your idea of "educating"?

Why don't you try to educate using kinder phrases instead of belittling people? You might get more to listen.
You also put words in my mouth. I never said anything about hate - I simply expressed my opinion. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT OBLIGATION OR MAKING IT ALL ABOUT ME! I wrote what I thought.
If anyone is intolerant of others, I think you win that prize. I am obviously a hell of a lot more open-minded than you.
Let me know when the education begins and the insults end. Otherwise, no one will EVER LISTEN TO YOU.

Answer 8

I agree some of the posters in this forum are idiots, both male and female. The majority who hate women, also hate feminists, hate gays and lesbians and bisexuals, and hate themselves. They hate just about anyone who isn't male and macho, even a heterosexual male isn't enough for them (though you have to wonder about that, but that's a whole different topic).

I'm sorry you were hurt and offended, but these people are NOT good representatives of humanity.

Even though many people don't understand the issues around gender or sexual orientation, quite a few people just try to live and let live. It takes quite a bit of hate to say the kinds of things the people of limited intellect and/or compassion expressed in this forum. There are many good people out there, who try every day to treat others with dignity and respect; they don't need to understand, they just accept people like they are, since it's the right thing to do.

Answer 9

Ok so I'm totally for respecting those that know they are the opposite gender than they were born to. And referring to the person as 'it' was very rude and disrespectful. But the poster does have a right to their opinion. I agree that a pre-op female should not be using the female restroom as it would make the other women uncomfortable. If and when she becomes post-op there should be no issue as to which restroom she uses.

While the words the poster used were insensitive the poster still has a valid point.

Answer 10

First of all, no matter what the gender is, male, female, transexuals, gays etc.. Would it be logical if those within that gender and/or sexual preference NOT use labels that is offensive towards those of their own "community?" It is obvious that names that are considered offensive, are names that is used amongst themselves as well. If People of a particular "community" don't want the "outsiders" using offensive names or labels, towards them, then wouldn't you think that the people within the community would do the same? As to NOT use the names that is offensive towards one another? It only tells outsiders that it's acceptable, since it's acceptable from within.

Secondly, no one can change the way the population thinks of transexuals, but you can change the way a transexual addresses themselves towards people. Such as the use of "it," "tranny," "shim," "herm," and so forth. If a transexual introduces themselves as the offensive names given, then, that is how society will address them. To tell society NOT to use the labels, is like telling society not to recognize them for who they are. After all, those who accept transexuals took the first step of getting to know them. It takes only one individual of that community to tune out society.

Where I live, we have them all. From all walks of life. And it's sad that every State, Country or County treats people who are different, different. Majority of the local people here accept transexuals, not for their gender change, but for who they are as an individual. They do, however, introduce themselves as a "tranny," although you find it offensive. And if that is how the transexuals in my community want to address their gender, then that is how it is accepted.

Therefore, you cannot say a certain name or label is offensive when people of that community use it as well. Using the offensive names amongst themselves is being a hypocrit when they say that the public cannot address them the same way.

Answer 11

Oh what a wonderful world this would be if everyone was tolerant and sought to educate themselves and understand those who were not like them....

The reality is, however, that we live in a society full of people who are considered 'different'....people are discriminated against for all sorts of reasons. And picking just one, with a view to belittle all those who do not understand, or seek to understand, shows that you are part of the problem - NOT the solution.

You cannot preach to people and expect them to change their thinking. We all have our own 'causes' and we all have our own problems. Hopefully, we will see a day when all men/women will be equal, and all will be treated with dignity. But until that time, preaching, criticizing and belittling only furthers the cause of hate and division...