Ok so which is it? Seriously...?

Question

Ephesians 2:8-9

8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9) not by works, so that no one can boast

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." --James 2:14

Answer 1

Well, what you have to look at here is that the first quotation is from Paul, and the second from James.

James was a disciple. That means, in short, that he was Jewish.

Since Judaism is more of an action-based than faith-based religion, performing mitzvot, or God's commandments, is central to leading a Jewish life.

Judaism believes that all moral laws are derived from these divine commandments. (Today the term mitzvah is often used to refer to any good deed.)

Kinds of Mitzvot

Jewish tradition holds that the Torah contains 613 mitzvot - 248 positive commandments (mitzvot aseh or commands to perform certain actions) and 365 negative commandments (mitzvot lo ta'aseh or commands to abstain from certain actions). An example of a positive mitzvah is to give charity. An example of a negative mitzvah is not to steal.


So James had an essentially Jewish outlook on works, which is perfectly understandable.


Paul, on the other hand, was interested in *getting converts to* his cobbled-together religion (based in an inadequate understanding of Judaism and his holdover exposure to Hellenic religions from his childhood - which is where he got the redeemer dying-god/king idea. Which he also had an inadequate understanding of.)

The gentile culture that Paul was trying to introduce his new religion into wasn't one that took kindly to having all the rules of Judaism. So Paul preached that you didn't have to do all that - you just had to believe.

It would have been a very hard sell otherwise.

But this posed a problem for Jewish converts, who were grounded in doing mitzvot.

This Epistle that you quoted was written by Paul to a specific church. It sounds to me like there was some contention in the church about "works". This may be because that church was made up of Jews who felt that "faith alone" was insufficient; who felt that doing mitzvot was still a requirement from God. (And to be perfectly honest, they were right, and Paul was wrong - it wasn't Jesus or his direct followers and disciples who said that the Torah was abrogated - it was Paul)


A whole lot of the contradictions of this sort in the NT come from the fact that Paul was NOT teaching what the disciples taught. The original church, (led by James and Peter, and calling themselves the Nazarenes), broke with Paul over his vast and far-reaching changes to what they knew Jesus had taught.

If you'd like to know more about what that original church taught, you'll have to do some digging, but if you read about the Ebionites (and can get past the venom of the "official" Paul-based church about those folks) you'll find out how Paul was viewed by the successors of the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus, who were certainly in a better position to transmit what Jesus' aims were than Paul, who only "met" Jesus in dreams and visions.

*** In short, what James saw saying was "If you talk the talk but don't walk the walk, then your talk is meaningless (or false)"

What Paul was saying was "Just say you're saved, and you are - it doesn't require you to change the way you live"

Which one do YOU think would be the easier sell?

What Paul did was to simply replace the (pagan) propitiatory burning of incense in a temple for bad deeds, with a confession of faith.


Christians ought to be paying far more attention to what Jesus said (as reported by actual disciples and followers) and *the disciples'* insight into Jesus' message and intent than what Paul said.

Or just cop to being Paulists, followers of the religion that PAUL invented.

Answer 2

Salvation is a gift from God, and does not come from our own deeds, it is purely an undeserved, unconditional gift. When one has accepted this gift, one is drawn closer to God by the Holy Spirit within. This process of being drawn closer to God, and closer to spiritual perfection is called santification. James' point is that without works, how can an outsider believe in the genuineness of one who claims to have faith? If the person's life is identical to that of a depraved sinner, then how can that person be truly of God. I don't see this as a contradiction, merely a sequence that should occur in a saved person... they accept Christ's gift of salvation, and then they are born as a new person and become more holy. I'm not saying they are ever perfect, or that they never sin, or that it isn't possible to have setbacks. But the overall pattern of their life should be a journey towards holiness, and their life by faith should be manifest in works. I see James' words as a confirmation of Christs' own words recorded in Matthew, "Thus by their fruits you will recognize them."

Answer 3

If a person truly loves Christ Jesus, that persons heart will be open to doing the Good Works God assigns. The good works we do come after we are saved, then the Holy Spirit produces Gods works in us. Before we have Gods Spirit inside us, the works we do are detestable to God, they are filthy rags. The idea is....God receives the Glory for the works He enables us to do. We take no credit for doing His works, we simply obey Him and give Him the honor and glory for the works we do. We are first saved through Faith, by believing in Christ Jesus, by doing so, we are found righteous in Gods eyes. The works we do are a Spiritual barometer of our relationship with Christ Jesus. The more we learn to submit to His authority, the more works He will cause us to do. It is He who opens the doors and gives us the opportunities to better serve Him by carrying out His will on this earth. Simply put: First comes faith, then comes obedience, then comes "Works"....God Bless You....Peace.

Answer 4

Part 1. Ephesians 2: 8,9
This is where you get Saved (Born-Again, Spirit Recreated) and GOD does it all, you only have to say YES to Jesus.

Part 2. James 2:14
This is where after you are Saved, you Learn How to Walk in Faith so as to be Able to Recieve---Healing, Protection, Deliverance, Guidance so on.
You "Work Out" part Two as you Grow in Chirst.

Answer 5

For one's Faith to be true they must also have Works. Neither Faith, nor works can be true without the other. It means that you can't just do nice things and be a good person and expect to be saved. You must also have faith. Once you are a Christian, you are expected to do good works. I'm sorry, but not I'm not really explaining it to it's full detail. Perhaps you should talk to a Pastor, or Christian friend. If you're not already involved in a Church, I encourage you to do so, and ask someone who is qualified to answer your questions, so you are not confused or led astray.

Answer 6

I understand your dilemma. I felt the same way in the beginning of all of this. Putting parties aside. (i don't know if you are a Dem or Rep) But what you should do is ask yourself what in this country affects you as an individual? What is important to you? What would you like to see different in this country? and how would that affect you and your family. Research the candidates' policies again after you have answered those questions for yourself. Make a decision based on your answers and choose the one that best fits you. I can't tell you who to vote for. I can make a suggestion :) (obama). But ultimately, it's your choice. I think it's more important that you exercise your choice to vote. Hope that helps...

Answer 7

Works are the result of faith God Bless.

Answer 8

Salvation is always through faith, from Genesis to Revelation.
Once you place your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, you put that faith into action! Study what it means to be a doer of the word and not merely a hearer.

If that doesn't clear it up for you feel free to email me.
-Redeemed

Answer 9

It's a gift, that comes by God through faith. However, if there are no works, the faith isn't real.

Answer 10

Neither one is correct.

Your error and the error of all who are concerned with the details of Judaism and Christianity, (and for a somewhat different reason, Islam,) is that you have failed to ask and answer the first question concerning the Bible's validity before reading on any further.

"In the beginning..." is all that is needed to raise the unanswered questions: "What beginning? ... and, "Why is a beginning point even assumed necessary?" Answer this before you waste your time and energy consumed in a document which very, very possibly has no merit at all.

Where Islam is concerned: It is not even necessary to look past the first four words of the Cu'ran if the Bible is, indeed,.unsubstantiated, (and that's certainly the case.)

Under those circumstances, the first four words of the Cu'ran contain the precise conclusion to everything else one needs to know about god-belief. It reads: "There is no god..." and I can completely agree with that.

Nuff said...!

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