Fellow Wiccans, come hither, I have a question for you.?

Question

I'll make things perfectly clear to start. I'm an Atheistic Wiccan. That means I think the gods are merely concepts, not actual beings, which as we all know is perfectly fine within Wicca as our interpretation of the gods is up to each individual Wiccan. Thats part of the beauty of Wicca.

That being said....

Wicca was created in the 50's/60's by Gerald Gardner. It did not exist before then and its a well known fact among Wiccans. Wicca is based on much older religions, such as Druidism, but that doesn't mean it is that religion. It simply is based on it (and many others).

This means that the terrible things that happened to the followers of those religions did not happen to us. Yes, we are still persecuted, and hated, and many of us will constantly hear the word "fluffy" associated with us.

There's a reason why we hear that word. Its because of this type of behavior claiming that Wiccans have been burned at the stake when we have not.

Now, we HAVE has potshots taken at us with...

... with a gun.

I'd like to know why so many of my fellow Wiccans make the false claim that Wiccans were burned at the stake or suffered any of the other horrible tortures of the ancient times when we were not.

Our religion is only 60 years old. If you continue this kind of behavior, no one will ever take us seriously.

So why do so many of my fellow Wiccans behave this way? We'd receive alot more validity if you acknowledged the facts.

Please do reply even if you're not Wiccan (though anyone who says "Find god or you're going to hell" will be automatically reported).

I'm not trying to tell them how to believe, I'm telling them to acknowledge the facts, not a comfortable fiction. Not acknowledging the facts only makes us no better than the Christians most Wiccans claim to dislike.

There is such thing as a moderate Wiccan, you know. I would be one. Taking the persecution stance to extremes in saying that we were burned at the stake, when we weren't, is simply foolish and makes Wiccans as a whole look really bad.

Ahh but, DancinSnow, are you witch first or Wiccan first? Witchcraft is a practice, it is not a religion. Wicca is the religion and not all Wiccans are witches. Why then would Wiccans claim that they have been burned at the stake when they have not, but witches have been?

Wiccans have not been burned at the stake. The religion itself is only 60 years old though Gardner wrote his books, and had his own coven, before that.

Therefore to claim that Wiccans have been burned at the stake, when they have not, is patently false and makes us look terrible.

And yes, I've heard this many times. In fact, someone was claiming that within the last page or so.

Answer 1

*applaudes like mad*
THANK YOU!
As a pagan, I can't stand the burning times thing. I bet one in 100 "witches" were actually burned at the stake. It was mostly Christians that feared nothing but mass mania.
You are correct in that many see Wicca as fluffy. Even among fellow pagans I have noticed. And the reasons you have pointed out are EXACTLY why. Your path has been commercialized beyong all belief and I hate that for you guys, I really do. All we can do is corrent them and hope for the best. LOL

Answer 2

You are very correct, there were no Wiccans burned at the stake, heck, there were very few REAL Witches burned at the stake either. Comments like that come from a lack of any real study of Paganism, Witchcraft and Wicca. Such mistakes are common among the young, the ill-educated, and the misinformed.

As Gardner and Valiente codified and defined Wicca, your concept of Wicca would make you so very not Wiccan.

The definition that you appear to be using was brought to the table AFTER Gardner had passed on, by folks who claimed that they could define what Gardner meant anyway they choose and still claim to be Wiccan.

I have the same problem with the folks who figure they can RE-define Wicca, as I do for the guy who RE-defined the message of Joshua Ben Joseph, Saul/Paul.

If you do not like the way someone founds a religion, either find one you do like, or go found your own.

Call yourself a Pagan, a Heathen, or a Witch if you like, but please, please, please, don't insinuate that what you practice is Wicca.

There are real reasons that there are a lot of folks still getting called fluffy.

Answer 3

Yes, we would definitely look more respectable if so many of us did not shove bad history down everyone else's throat. There's several reason for the behavior:

Bad info: a lot of the "9 million Wiccans died in the Burning Times" is based on information published in the Encyclopedia Brittanica until 1969. Its understandable that people in the 60s had the wrong info. That excuse no longer holds any weight, however, as there has been tons of updated material published on the subject.

Attention-seeking: "I'm being persecuted" wins sympathy in this day and age.

Outcast mentality: Right now it's popular to be part of the "outcast" group. Being misunderstood is a bragging point in some circles.

Laziness: Many of the people who insist on bad history also believe that the spiritual secrets of the universe are available in a single book from Llewellyn. Actually learning about history is too much work for them so they believe the first thing they read...and then steadfastly support it in the face of all contradictory evidence because admitting you may be wrong implies a need to study more.

Insecure faith: Once certain people link bogus history to their religion, they tend to think of them as a single entity. Admit your concept of history is wrong, and they fear that's an admittance that the associated faith is wrong too, even though the spiritual truth of Wicca really isn't rooted in history (it's not based on the prophesies of a historical figure, for example.)

Answer 4

Well, I'm not a Wiccan (I have not been trained in, nor initiated into, a Wiccan Tradition, although I have been initiated into a lineage, initiatory Tradition that is *informed by* Wicca - NROOGD)....but as a Witch, I'd really like to see this kind of nonsense dropped.

It *is* nonsense. The people who were put to death for witchcraft were NOT "Wiccans", because Wicca didn't exist at that time.

Perpetuating such drivel does not serve any Witch, whether Wiccan or non-Wiccan. (And yes, Wiccans are Witches - Wicca is a Witchcraft Priest(ess)hood, loosely based in Celtic Witchcraft)

It only serves to make the people who disseminate this nonsense look foolish, and by association, make all actual Wiccans appear ignorant.

But then, anyone who is "selling" this kind of karp is not likely to be an actual Wiccan. Probably a pop-wicca-lite IRABO*.



* I Read A Book, Once


*****NOTE: Hestia's Priestess, thank you for the links you provided. I find that I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment expressed in the last one:

"It is not Wicca that I condemn, but those who bastardize Wicca. It is the person who picks up a book and claims to be a High Priestess without going through the years of study, devotion, and discipline which make one worthy of such a title. It is the person who espouses the values of tolerance and acceptance with one breath, and then spews the worst sort of invective against Christians with the next, holding all of them responsible for the crimes and atrocities of a misguided and hateful few. It is the people who show disdain to the Gods they claim to reverence, dismissing them as mere archetypes or masks, and pretending that they would be pleased with sloppy, ineffectual, hastily cobbled together rituals. It is the people passing off their delusional fantasies and poor grasp of history as unquestionable fact. It is the people who believe that all Pagans believe the same things, do the same things, act the same way - and anyone who does it differently from them is wrong. It is the people who would prostitute their religion for a fast buck by producing poorly written InstaWitch books, spell kits, and charging exorbitant fees for classes whose content they swiped off the internet. It is the intellectual stagnation and philosophical shallowness represented by countless interchangeable Wicca 101 websites, but never anything touching on the deeper mysteries of faith. It is the ego-tripping, grandstanding, histrionic outbursts, and martyr complexes which I cannot stand."

Answer 5

Thank you for clearing it up for the the rest of the group. Many believe as soon as you say Pagan your a witch or Wicca is another word for witch. People would rather take hear say over fact and would rather die than pick up a book - mostly out of fear that they may be wrong. Go figure.
Here is something for you to pass along to those that need the truth about the "burning times".

Since 1120 AD, the Christian movement, and the hunger for dominance over societies after Rome started leaving Europe, witches and Pagans alike were persecuted for their beliefs. Very few were burned. Many were ostricized from the town or they changed their title from Shaman or Witch (Welsh and word for healer and speaker of the Fae) to healer and they even began to nail crosses to their doors so that they would not be pushed away from the village or even attacked.
Back then - to be without a town or village to live in and have protection of a Lord was sure to bring on an early death whether it was sickness, starvation, or attack.
After the holy wars failed, the feverence of conversion to Christianity was utmost on the list. To have those convert they adopted Pagan rituals most observed in their area to entice followers. For the next 400 yrs the Monarchy ruled with the Churches blessings. A great paranoia grew in the land where because of wars being fought all over in France, Spain, Germany, and the discovery of the New Worlds and the riches they "supposedly" had, many of the men that held land or had wealth had died and left demanse or land to the woman of the home. Those that did not have sons or male close relatives were considered heads of their households and could decide to marry or not, especially if they were past the child bearing years. Men or those that thought it was wrong for a woman to be incharge or even those that coveted their wealth would spread rumors of witchcraft and satanic rituals being performed within the home and family and that is why they would not follow the ruling of the church to take a husband of social standing. With the vigorous inquisitions of a "certain mark" or "relics" or even jewelry could mark someone as a "sorceress". Many women were given the choice to marry a Christian man or die. They were even tortured for confessions if no man wanted to marry her. If you turned in a "suspected" witch and she (under torture) confessed of her sins, that usually the property was divided to the person that turned them in and with the church.
Whole small villages were burned to the ground and every man, woman, and child were killed or put to the stake for their Pagan beliefs associated with witchcraft so that the Lord or person that owned adjoining land, could divide the land and it's livestock - with a portion going to the church. This continued up till the late 1700's. Salem witch trials were similar except for one tiny detail. The main man that handled most of the reports was also a pedophile and a womanizer and was a known sadomasicist in England when he "found God" and the opportunity to rule a small town.
There is your "witch burning" in a nut shell. They were not killed because they were "Wiccans" or ate babies and killed animals to sacrifice unto Satan. Pagans had no concept of Hell and the Evil one was small in comparison to the Gods they worshipped. The Evil one was more like a trickster and a harbenger of ill tidings. So those of you that think we are evil need to understand - if we do not have a concept of Hell like the Christians (there is no Hell) and believe in the Summerlands were all are given good souls and cleaned of negativity how can we be the ones considered evil?

Answer 6

Although I am a christian, I have thoroughly researched the roots of wicca,and the first book I read specifically stated that it was created far after the times of persecution through such measures and that wiccans were never burned at the stake.

Answer 7

I disagree that atheism is compatible with Wicca in the long run, sorry. I think an in-depth study finds that our individual conceptualization of the gods does not include them not being gods.

I've been a Wiccan for over 20 years. My tradition was teaching Wicca was a post-WWII reincarnation of a post WWI British phenomenon 20 years before I was a part of it.

Answer 8

It's not that our religion was created by Gardener. It was just unheard of until then. It became organized once it became illegal to persecute Witches. You need to do more research. Paganism has been around since the beginning of time, and just hasn't been able to form an organized religion (like Wicca) until very recently.

Anyway, the terrible things didn't even happen to us, or the Pagans and Druids of times past. They happened to Christians who got accused of being Witches. Few Pagans were actually caught and persecuted.

But you're right. No Wiccans were burned at the stake. Just Witches. Which is what we call ourselves, is it not?
___
You do have a point though. We are Wiccans first. I do see what you're getting annoyed about. I think Wiccans have a right to complain about being persecuted right now (In my experience though I've only been called a devil worshiper once) but not about back then. The Christians should be complaining about being persecuted, by their own religion.

Answer 9

The Christians that say this often are off track. Unfortunately a lot of Christians tend to speak about something they know close to nothing if not nothing about. I've been Wiccan for 13 years I have never noticed that we as Wiccans have to "work" to get closer to the Divine. I wouldn't even call meditation "work".

Answer 10

Just goes to show that there are people from all different religions that do not know the history of what they believe, and from them are those who want to hold on to the belief that they have and always will be persecuted for their beliefs.
I would think that since Wiccans label themselves as witches, that those who aren't as educated in the religion would make that connection. (especially if they decided: If all witches are wiccan and all wiccans are pagans, then all pagans are witches)

Answer 11

I have never heard a Wiccan claiming that Wiccans had been burnt at the stake.....I have heard it said that Witches were burned.
I am very interested in history, and hope that when it is passed down that it is accurate.