What did these two Scripture writers mean?

Question

"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. " (James 2:20-24)

and

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done." (Rev. 20:12:13)

Rhonda, thank you for the detailed response, but it is of no consequence in which direction my "born-again-ness" goes. As it happens, I am Catholic, but Catholics do not "treasure" works over faith; of the two, only one derives from the grace of God and that is of course faith. Therefore it is the greatest treasure, no contest. In fact, it is in a class by itself. I cannot treasure my own works, only the grace that is at work in me.

Where you and I diverge is at the point of defining what our response to that grace looks like. You have taken great pains to point out that you see "deeds", plural, as merely a collective of each individual's "deed", singular -- that one act of accepting Christ's sacrifice. That, by itself, is faith. And if this was all that is required of us, then what of the many references to essentially "working out our faith"? Does it all mean just that ONE act? Sorry ... with respect, I don't agree.

Answer 1

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

All salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice. Salvation is a free gift -- a gift that is not "owed" to us, that God didn't have to offer us, and that we could never "earn" on our own -- that we accept by faith and works. Christ doesn't have to give us this gift of salvation; we don't "deserve" this gift, we can't "earn" it; but He, in His endless Love for us, offers it nonetheless. We have to believe this gift exists (have faith) and then open our hands to receive it (obey, inspired by the grace given to us).

Answer 2

What was meant in James 2:20-24 is that faith is to believe what God has said to the point where you will act on it.Abraham,showed his faith in God's word to the point where he was about to take the life of his only son because God told him to, but he knew that God had also told him that he would be the father of many nations. Then God stopped him once he backed up his faith with corresponding action.That was done not that God would know how strong Abraham's faith was...God already knew, that was done so that we would understand what faith is( Action) faith is action not just saying it,its doing it....So by that everyone can know if they have dead faith...Faith without works is dead....

In (Rev.20: 12-13 to me that explains the question that people ask about people who have died who never heard the word preached,never knew about God. You have to remember hades or (hell) is like a jail people in their spirit form are being held there until judgment,just like some people on earth are being held in jail til their court date to go before the judge to receive sentence. I don't believe that every one of the dead who comes up out of hell to be judged will be sentence to the lake of fire..I believe that some will be saved then judged according to their works...

Answer 3

It means that faith is more than just saying "I believe" and then having done with it. I think that the phrase "faith alone" in Protestant theology doesn't, when properly understood, mean what Roman Catholics think it means. Likewise, I know that there is a great deal of misunderstanding from Protestants on the subject of Roman Catholic soteriology. Don't get me wrong, they are two distinct theologies, but neither side, for the most part, understands the other very well. I know this because I converted from Protestant to Catholic and back to Protestant again. I am no expert, but I do know what each side thinks of the other, and much of it is wrongly understood from both sides.

Answer 4

Works do not save us. Read Ephesians 2:8-9 if you want to know that. However if we are saved we will have works. They come hand in hand. The works do not save us they are just a result of faith. With Abraham. If he had said he had faith in God but then was unwilling to do what God asked it would have shown his faith was not true. It would have shown he did not have real faith. Thus his works showed his faith. Which is what James teaches. That your faith will be shown by your works.

As to the verses in Revelation I think that refers to non-believers. Christians will have been forgiven and our sins forgotten. Thus there will be nothing to judge us with. We will instead receive rewards at the bema seat of Christ.

Answer 5

I must say, I am glad that Catholics are actually reading their Bible. I hope that you actually looked these passages up yourself, and read the actual letter of James and the Revelation to John in their entirety.

At one point in time, you wold have imprisoned, tortured, or burned at the stake by your own church for having done this.

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COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

Answer 6

At Isaiah 43;11 God was Isreal`s savior who got Isreal through the red sea and delievered them from Egypt but God? God is Christians Savior through the lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:25 New International Version 1984 (NIV1984) 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord And as you can see in no way shape or form does this prove the trinity.

Answer 7

It means among other things that the Protestants were wrong on Sola fide and Martin Luther deliberately mistranslated the original Bible but did not think to remove the word "works" (as in faith and "works") in other places such as this. It shows crass petulance and arrogance in modifying the word of God simply to settle a score with the Mother church and to differentiate from that church on the part of this so-called "humble" man who even cursed the Jews for not accepting him (and died 2 days later). My belief is that Martin Luther is in hell for his crimes against God and his blatant lies against and demonification of the Hebrews (for daring to modify His Word that the ancient churches took so many pains and scholarship to preserve)

Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy claim it contradicts Luther's(that one man who came 16 centuries later) doctrine of justification through faith alone (Sola fide) derived from his translation of Romans 3:28.

To me its a no-brainer. (that faith without works and love is dead). Hence the author (James the Just) calls such a man foolish to believe what he wants to. (that he needs no works but simply says "Lord, Lord")

Answer 8

I'm not sure if "Born Agan Catholic" means that you were born again FROM the Catholic faith or TO the Catholic faith. I do not wish to disservice your belief system, but it might help to know how highly you treasure works or faith.

The first one: It is part of the "Faith without works is dead" passage from James 2. Hebrews 11:17-19 says, "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, "That in Isaac shall thy seed be called': Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from whence also he received him in a figure."

In essence, God told Abraham that he would be blessed through Isaac. So, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice this "blessing" before Isaac was even married and had children, Abraham did so believing that God would either stop the sacrifice, or raise Isaac from the dead since Abraham trusted God's promise that he would father a nation through Isaac. Because his faith was so strong he did something which made NO sense to the ordinary person, but trusted God to fix it so that God kept his first promise, God spared Isaac, and called Abraham "righteous" just for being faithful. You and I are not "righteous" (perfect) even after salvation -- we still sin. But God "credits" or gives us His righteousness if we believe Him strongly enough to ACT on the belief. It is not enough to believe that a chair will hold you -- you've got to SIT on the chair.

Before I answer the second question, I know that it looks bad for God to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, but God KILLED His OWN "son" (Jesus as a man) on the same mountain that He asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. He spared Isaac -- He did not spare Jesus. He offered a ram as a substitute for Isaac; He offers Jesus as our Substitute. And Abraham recognized that this request to sacrifice Isaac was a sign of Jesus' future sacrifice because he said, "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireth; as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the Lord, it SHALL BE seen" (Not past-tense; the ram, but future - Jesus.) (Genesis 22:14)

The second passage is the Great White Throne Judgment. Different things are taught about this passage -- all by strong, true Christians. For those who do not believe in the Rapture, this judgment decides who goes to haven. It says they are judged by what they've done in the books -- their saving deeds. The "deed" which leads to salvation is a true belief in Jesus as Savior and Lord -- deep within the heart -- a belief that Jesus rose to win the victory over the power of sin and of death. One who has done this "deed" of believing is going to heaven. One who has not is going to hell.

A belief that Jesus won victory over the power of sin, and over death, lives in the belief that he/she is dead to his/her old way of life, and that Jesus is now Lord, living in and through them. Such faith leads to good works. The good works don't save, but they are a result of one who lives by faith.

Those who DO believe in the Rapture, etc -- they believe that only unbelievers face this Great White Throne Judgment -- belivers are already in heaven. They say that these people have rejected God and plan to get to heaven based on their works or their deeds. Since all works or deeds are written down, they will discover as the books are read that they were not nearly as perfect as they'd hoped -- and that God sees the heart and knows that their deeds were not beneficial or done in true pure motivation. These words of their "deeds" condemn them.

Pick your version.

Answer 9

Faith , without action is useless.

Answer 10

They mean that even though works of the Torah can't save us, works done IN CHRIST DO contribute to our salvation.

That's a classic misunderstanding protestants make. They always refer to works of the law saying that they do not save us, but in Hebrew, law is "Torah", which in the end means what I just said above: Works of the Torah can't save us, but works done IN CHRIST DO contribute to our salvation.