Roman Catholics?

Question

This is long, but please read it and answer the question at the end. Thank you.

The Council of Florence, the 17th Ecumenical (and hence “infallible”) Council of the Roman Catholic Church, said the following:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).

Yet, section 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1993) says:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

In a similar way the Pope seemed to be in line with section 841 when he said,

VATICAN CITY, SEP 9, 1998 (VIS) - At today's Wednesday general audience in St. Peter's Square, the Pope spoke on the theme of The Spirit of God and the 'Seeds of Truth' in non-Christian Religions. The 'seeds of truth', said John Paul II, are 'the effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body', the wind 'which blows where it wills'. The Holy Father explained that in all authentic religious experiences, the most characteristic manifestation is prayer. ... Every true prayer is inspired by the Holy Spirit, Who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person. Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior. The attitude of the Church and of individual Christians with regard to other religions is characterized by sincere respect, deep kindness, and also, where it is possible and appropriate, cordial collaboration. This does not mean forgetting that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator and Savior of the human race. Nor does it imply lessening the missionary effort to which we have an obligation, in obedience to the command of the Risen Lord: 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'. This attitude of respect and dialogue, concluded John Paul II, represents a due recognition of the 'seeds of the Word' and of the 'groans of the Spirit'. It also prepares the proclamation of the Gospel in awaiting the time when the Lord shows his mercy.

Yet, scarcely two years later, we encounter a Papal encyclical Dominus Iesus, which reads in part,

4. The Church's constant missionary proclamation is endangered today by relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism, not only de facto but also de iure (or in principle). As a consequence, it is held that certain truths have been superseded; for example, the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ, the nature of Christian faith as compared with that of belief in other religions, the inspired nature of the books of Sacred Scripture, the personal unity between the Eternal Word and Jesus of Nazareth, the unity of the economy of the Incarnate Word and the Holy Spirit, the unicity and salvific universality of the mystery of Jesus Christ, the universal salvific mediation of the Church, the inseparability -- while recognizing the distinction -- of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Christ, and the Church, and the subsistence of the one Church of Christ in the Catholic Church.

5. As a remedy for this relativistic mentality, which is becoming ever more common, it is necessary above all to reassert the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him” (Mt 11:27); “No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him” (Jn 1:18); “For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form” (Col 2:9-10).

For this reason, the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held. If faith is the acceptance in grace of revealed truth, which “makes it possible to penetrate the mystery in a way that allows us to understand it coherently”, then belief, in the other religions, is that sum of experience and thought that constitutes the human treasury of wisdom and religious aspiration, which man in his search for truth has conceived and acted upon in his relationship to God and the Absolute.

This distinction is not always borne in mind in current theological reflection. Thus, theological faith (the acceptance of the truth revealed by the One and Triune God) is often identified with belief in other religions, which is religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself. This is one of the reasons why the differences between Christianity and the other religions tend to be reduced at times to the point of disappearance.

Hence, those solutions that propose a salvific action of God beyond the unique mediation of Christ would be contrary to Christian and Catholic faith.

But, only a few months later, we get this:

GENERAL AUDIENCE

Wednesday 6 December 2000

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

The theme of our General Audiences during this Great Jubilee Year has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence, we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the Kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The Kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world, and should be a source of serenity and confidence for our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes - the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life - will enter God’s Kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his Church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this Kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say: "Thy Kingdom come"; may this be the hope that sustains and inspires our Christian life and work.

Do you really think Rome clarifies the issues of the gospel, or does she muddle them?

Imacatholic, and Newlycradlecatholic: Neither one of you really addressed the issue. In these written statements Faith in Christ is sometimes absolutely essential and sometimes not. Being a member of The Church is sometimes essential and sometimes not. How can you see this and maintain that the Roman Catholic Church clarifies the issues?

Answer 1

Dear Preachy,

I am still not a Catholic but...

You are not the first, nor shall you be the last to try and show them that the "claim" of infallibility is just that, a claim. One of the most eloquent arguments is "The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope" which is part of the Confessional Documents of the Lutheran Chruch known as "The Book of Concord" or "Concordia".

We must remain mindful and forgiving because the visible Church is made up of men, who are saints and sinners at the same time. (Even I, a Lutheran, make errors and will until I am in Heaven!).

These documents were baned as heretical (under threat of excommunication, and earlier torture and execution) by the RC Church until the time of John Paul II.

Read it. I am sorry if our RC friends find it inflammatory, please try and keep it in historical context. As Yosemite Sam would say "thems fightin words".

I must also defend our RC brothers and sisters; they still have the Divine Liturgy, and they still proclaim the Gospel. That's more than most denominations do today.

My Pastor told me that the Liturgy (traditional, formal order of the Mass) is there to protect us from a bad sermon. Even if we get nothing from the sermon we still have heard Scripture, the Gospel proclaimed, and have seen it and partaken in the promise of the Gospel through the reception of the True Body and Blood of Christ.

Your friend in Christ,

Mark

Answer 2

*Is Catholic*

The dogmatic understanding of the Council of Florence still stands.

The main problem is that most people do not know how to read such documents in the light of their authority and place within Catholic theology.

For example, the Catechism is not, as Ratzinger (who helped write it), now Pope Benedict XVI, on page 25 of Introduction to the Universal Catechism, a super authority – each statement contained within the CCC only as the authority of previous dogmatic decision, no more no less. Thus the CCC will bow to the dogmatic understanding of Florence. Additionally the CCC is a Catechism, not a book of dogma, and thus it exists as a tool for teaching the faith not for saying dogmatically what the faith is.

I just spent a few months studying the CCC at 841-49 in detail.

Let us break it a part.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Some points
1. The plan of salvation includes those who acknowledge a creator-god as opposed to those who acknowledge no god or a destroyer god (which would be satan). Is this really new that God would look after those who seek Him?
2. The Muslims have the closest correct understanding of God outside of the Elect. This is because historically Islam is a heresy of Catholicism. See Belloc's THE GREAT HERESIES. Thus Islam will have the closest correct understanding because it comes out of Catholicism but is not of the Elect. One could say that Muslims are to Catholics as Samaritans were to Jews, though the latter were perhaps closer.
3. Muslims PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham. That means “they think they do but do not”. This is very clear when one reads Vatican II and see how Muslims are placed in context of relationship to Truth.
4. “Together with us” this is more clear in other documents but it is the equivalent of saying that we both call the sky blue and the grass green. It is showing points of commonality NOT showing a true union of believe and faith.

General Audiences have next to no dogmatic authority and should not be waved about as dictionary definitions or “gold standards”. There teachings should be considered for what they are, authentic teachings of the Bishop of Rome – but not authoritatively binding in any special way. Thus what is said in them is closer to what Pope John Paul II thought of Muslims rather than what the Church thinks. It is important to differentiate between the voice of the Pope and the voice of the Church. There is co-operation and unity between them but they are not the same voice.

DOMINIUS IESUS IS NOT A PAPAL ENCYCLICAL!!!! It is a document written by Card. Ratzinger , a document of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, signed and promulgated by Pope John Paul II as a authentic and binding dogmatic teaching for all of Catholicism.

As such, its authority is very great.

SO let me just repeat what Dominius Iesus said

In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him” (Mt 11:27); “No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him” (Jn 1:18); “For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form” (Col 2:9-10).

The last general audience quote that you gave...again it is a general audience so not very high on the authority scale.

BUT let me point something out for you.

The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes - the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life - will enter God’s Kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his Church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this Kingdom.

Do note that there are two separate thoughts here!
1. Those that live in accordance with the Beatitudes will enter the Kingdom.
2. Non-Christians contribute to the building of this Kingdom.

This does not say that non-Christians enter the Kingdom just that they help to build it! Some non-Christians may enter into the Kingdom, but only if they live in accordance with the Beatitudes. However, if you know your Catholic theology, the father one is away from Christ, the harder it is to live the Beatitudes. So always constantly there is this underlying them of Repent, Be Baptized, and Work out your salvation.(Acts 2:35-ff)

But anyway, I think that people confuse other people more than the Church confuses people about the Gospel.

Answer 3

Well, that's kind of like the "Calvinist" versus "Hyper-Calvinist" deal. People have made a semantic adaptation that helps them communicate a complex concept in a single symbol. Sure, technically, [C]atholicism is broader than the Latin Rite, although you must confess that the Latin Rite is the one most familiar to modern Western societies. Why is that? Could it be the absolute crushing dominance of the Italian Home Office with respect to the lesser traditions? Might you cut a little slack for those of us taking the 50,000 foot view of the matter? If tomorrow, the adjectival use of "Roman" to delineate [C]atholicism's core nucleus of doctrine were simply stopped, it would take no time at all for a new adjective to replace it, as the linguistic need for such a device is real and inescapable. I think something like "Papal Catholicism" might be an adequate replacement. In any event, history has created the identity you seek to rehabilitate by remarketing under a more neutral brand name, and natural language will fill any vacuum left behind by artificial word games used to suppress the negative associations of the Roman label.

Answer 4

The pope (actual) was in charge of the children safety council at the same time pedophiles were unmasked in the US. when US lawyers try to get to the vatican Mr. Bush as per petition of the vatican give the pope a (inmunity) intl. so he can not be call to US courts.
The catolic church has become the abomination wich the bible cuoutes again and again but people don't want to face the true, cause the true can shake a whole system.

Answer 5

My friend, Rome has been muddling the gospel and destroying souls for 17 centuries ever since she was hatched as an egg from the cockatrice.The Roman Church is Satans greatest masterpiece, i do not say that for effect or in malice its just the truth.King Jesus says" you cannot serve two masters".Read the New test. for yourself, then you will know what the gospel is according to Jesus Christ, and what an affront the Roman Church poses to it.I pray all the elect catholics find the truth

Answer 6

The Church truly clarifies the issues of the Gospel but you must keep things in historical perspective.

The Council of Florence was from 1431 to 1445. We now live in the year 2007.

The Catholic Church is not frozen in stone. She is a living organism, the Body of Christ, growing in truth and wisdom under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to be the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Unlike Christians who only use the Holy Scriptures for doctrine, the Catholic Church also bases doctrine on Holy Tradition.

The Catholic Church in 1000 C.E. was closer to the Kingdom of God than the Church was in 500 C.E.

The Catholic Church in 1500 C.E. was closer to the Kingdom of God than the Church was in 1000 C.E.

The Catholic Church in 2000 C.E. was closer to the Kingdom of God than the Church was in 1500 C.E.

The Catholic Church in 2500 C.E. will be closer to the Kingdom of God than the Church was in 2000 C.E.

I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (John 16:12-13)

The Catholic Church does not use Holy Scripture as the only basis of doctrine. It could not. The early Catholic church existed before and during the time that the New Testament was written (by Catholics).

There were hundreds of Christian writings during the first and second centuries. Which New Testament writings would become official was not fully decided until about 400 C.E.

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding the early church (and is guiding the church today) to make the correct choices about things like:
+ The Holy Trinity (which is also only hinted at in the Bible)
+ Going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday (which is actually directly against one of the Ten Commandments)
+ The Communion of Saints
+ Which writings include in the New Testament?

Things that are even more modern like
+ Slavery is bad. Slavery is never declared evil in the Bible. This was one of the justifications for slavery in the Confederate States.
+ Democracy is good. The Bible states that either God should be the leader of the nation like Israel before the kings or kings should be the leader, "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's." This was talked about a lot during the American Revolution.

This second source of doctrine is called Apostolic Tradition.

Do Christians who do not allow the continuing guiding force of the Holy Spirit to make their beliefs more and more perfect, still endorse slavery as Colossians 3:22 commands, "Slaves, obey your human masters in everything"?

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2)

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 80 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.htm#80

With love in Christ.

Answer 7

i'm sorry dude, it's too late to read this.

I'll try to take a look tomorrow, so until then i'm just saving my spot.


but to provide an answer, i'll say "if you have God in your heart, you are ok"

and i think Papal infalliblity is actually infallible, that the councils aren't or something like that, i don't know, it's late where i am and alltmmy words are jumbling


edit

i was going to say Newlycradlecatholic had a good answer, but i guess you didn't like it...


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ag_AkXNppQiTR5S94TOwbUXsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071005144852AAJLQ9v

Answer 8

Roman Catholics clarifies the issues in the gospals!

Answer 9

I will assume your question is asked in sincerity and will answer likewise, either for your benefit or for other readers:

An unfortunate thing that often happens when people question the beliefs and doctrines of the Catholic faith (or any faith other than their own) is that various writings and passages are taken out of context or without regard to history. This appears to be happening in this case.

For example, the Council of Florence was held in the early 1400's and one of the items on its agenda was to reunify with the Eastern Orthodox Church, which had split away over small doctrinal differences and mostly political issues 350 years earlier. The wording of the decree was (and still is) the church's teaching on the unity of the Church and on salvation through faith in Christ. It was stated pointedly in hopes that the Orthodox would reunite. Remember, this was before the Protestant Revolt, and the Orthodox were the only large group that was separated from the Church. The Church believed then and believes now that all Christians should be united (Ephesians 4:1-6, Acts 20:28-30).

The second passage you cite from the Catechism (compiled in 1993) is origianally from Nostra Aetate, a decree from the Second Vatican Council in 1965. In taking the passage out of context, you ommitted this, which is the point of the document:

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ, "the way the truth, and the life" (John 14, 6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself (4).

The Church therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

The Church is not contradicting its message of unity and faithfulness to its teachings among Christians that it taught 600 years earlier, it is just pointing out that there is some goodness and truth in other religions, particularly those who worship God Our Father, the God of Abraham, specifically the Jews and Muslims. The decree simply says we should respect them and be nice to them, which you surely can't argue would be the way of Jesus. (Romans 2).

In your third passage, you chose to cite items 4 and 5, which make no sense without the context of item 3, which states:

"In the practice of dialogue between the Christian faith and other religious traditions, as well as in seeking to understand its theoretical basis more deeply, new questions arise that need to be addressed through pursuing new paths of research, advancing proposals, and suggesting ways of acting that call for attentive discernment. In this task, the present Declaration seeks to recall to Bishops, theologians, and all the Catholic faithful, certain indispensable elements of Christian doctrine, which may help theological reflection in developing solutions consistent with the contents of the faith and responsive to the pressing needs of contemporary culture.

The expository language of the Declaration corresponds to its purpose, which is not to treat in a systematic manner the question of the unicity and salvific universality of the mystery of Jesus Christ and the Church, nor to propose solutions to questions that are matters of free theological debate, but rather to set forth again the doctrine of the Catholic faith in these areas, pointing out some fundamental questions that remain open to further development, and refuting specific positions that are erroneous or ambiguous. For this reason, the Declaration takes up what has been taught in previous Magisterial documents, in order to reiterate certain truths that are part of the Church's faith."

This was written in 2000 in response to the practice of many lay people (regular Catholics) as well as priests and bishops taking the tolerance required in Nostra Aetate to the point of permissiveness. The declaration was written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI, to remind Catholics that there are specific truths in our faith, and while we respect the beliefs of others, we are not to adopt them as our own, in other words, we are not to take the approach of "whatever" or "anything goes."

In your last passage, you have completely misquoted the original passage, which is here:

"Those who have chosen the way of the Gospel Beatitudes and live as "the poor in spirit", detached from material goods, in order to raise up the lowly of the earth from the dust of their humiliation, will enter the kingdom of God. "Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world", James asks in his Letter, "to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him?" (Jas 2: 5). Those who lovingly bear the sufferings of life will enter the kingdom: "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14: 22; cf. 2 Thes 1: 4-5), where God himself "will wipe away every tear ... and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore" (Rv 21: 4). The pure of heart who choose the way of righteousness, that is, conformity to the will of God, will enter the kingdom, as St Paul warns: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, ... nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6: 9-10; cf. 15: 50; Eph 5: 5)."

Still, the above passage is completely consistent with the Church's teachings on the Gospels.

So to answer your question, yes, I believe Rome clarifies the issues of the Gospels, but not for any of the reasons described above. I believe it because both the Church and the Bible say that the CHURCH is the pillar of the Truth: 1 Timothy 3:15 - "This letter will let you know how we should conduct ourselves in God's household, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and support of the Truth." This was written by the Apostle Paul in his letter to Timothy sometime between 63 and 67 AD. When the Bible refers to the Church, it means the original Church, the one led by Peter (Matthew 16:18) and guided by the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). That Church has prevailed under a 2000 year-old line of apostolic and papal succession and has been known as the Catholic Church since the year 110, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16-18).

But we do not reject the things that are true and holy in your faith. If we all paid each other the same respect and tolerance, focusing on what we have in common (which among Christian denominations is a great deal) we would be able to live together in better harmony, as Jesus asks us to do when he says, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Part II: Faith in Christ is essential. Membership in the Church is essential. There are things that are good and holy in other faiths. Pretty clear...

Answer 10

um.. no