Do you think this is typical of traditionally "male-dominated" occupations? Gender discrimination?

Question

I often see questions in this forum asking why women aren't in jobs that are dangerous or strenuous (I guess the Iraqi war slips their minds). But is it a case of the chicken and the egg? These occupations, like fire fighting, have been traditionally male-dominated jobs, so are women worried about harassment or discrimation or the danger and physical exertion? Here's an article about the chronic racial and gender discimination occuring in the LA Fire Department: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fire3oct03,1,6660445.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I don't want women to get special breaks, but I also don't want them to be sexually harassed on the job, such as unwanted touching, that occurred at the LAFD.

Do you think this is typical of traditionally "male-dominated" occupations? Gender discrimination and racial discrimination?

Answer 1

When I was a teenager I had a dream of becoming a police officer. I had grown up in a family where my father was a sergeant (Seattle PD), his father a police chief (Tacoma PD), and my uncle was a lieutenant (Tacoma PD). I knew what the career entailed, because I grew up asking questions and listening to their stories, and I was sure that this is what I wanted to be. One day I told my dad about my dream. I was excited to share the news with him- I thought he'd be happy to know that one of his children wanted to follow in his footsteps. But I was wrong. My dad sat me down, and with seriousness and compassion he told me what he thought I really needed to know. He said that I would not be well accepted because I was female. He told me how male police officers treated female police officers. He said that the women were not respected. He said that the male officers did not want female partners to patrol with. He said that affirmative action quotas resulted in reverse discrimination, and women were not made to pass the same physical requirements as men, and therefore the male officers did not feel "safe" having female partners on patrol with them. He said that because some women were hired and promoted (because of the quotas) often before more qualified male applicants, the men resented them. He said I would be unhappy working in such an atmosphere of prejudice, resentment and mistrust. I could see it in his eyes and in the way he calmly, compassionately spoke, that it pained him to tell me what he was telling me. The impact of his words and cautions had the desired effect. I gave up my dream. I decided I did not want to deal with the things he told me I would have to face on a daily basis in that job. Looking back all these years later, I have to admit I was broken hearted, but I loved him for telling me the truth. If I had been of stronger character, or tougher-skinned, perhaps I would have gone ahead and pursued my dream of becoming a police officer. In some ways, I wish I had. But I didn't want people I worked with to see me as inferior, I didn't want them to be afraid to work with me. I didn't want to work in an atmosphere of prejudice.

EDIT: Those were things that existed during the mid-eighties. Now, in the year 2007, I wonder if anything has changed?

EDIT: It is my personal opinion that women face a hard enough time trying to be accepted (and respected) in traditionally male-dominated jobs. Quotas (and the lowering of physical requirement standards for women), though the intent was good, have only served to increase the amount of prejudice these women have had to deal with in the workplace.

Answer 2

Yes, it's typical. Women have come a long way but we still do not generally get the respect from men that we deserve.

The kind of joking Mad Max describes is not funny when it's directly about you. I can joke with the best of them and get down and dirty but when it turns personal ( and Max, you know what I mean) it's not funny any more. Or has a fight never broken out between males when someone slipped past the limits?

The strenuous job argument is just more BS from men who do not respect women. They'll bring up anything no matter how stupid so that they don't have to look at themselves.

Answer 3

If you've never experienced gender discrimination, does that mean it doesn't exist? I see people give the reason why gender discrimination can't exist is because they personally haven't experienced it. Are these people so lucky, or so privileged, or in denial, or lack empathy, that they can't see even one instance of unfairness, for just one person because of their gender? No just because you haven't experienced gender discrimination doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. However, just because others percieve that they have doesn't mean that they are automatically right either. There are any number of reasons why someone wouldn't see gender discrimination. Some of these you mentioned, but to be fair I'll add one: perhaps discrimination, at least of the most insidious kind, doesn't exist in the society you happen to be living in. Is this way of thinking similar as the thinking of people who say they have never experienced racism, or don't see any racism or don't see what the big deal is about racism? Maybe or perhaps what they are saying is more like 'quit playing the same old victim card everytime and actually try and do something with your life before you start blaming others for failures that occur'. It's so easy to say that when you fail it's somebody else's fault. But life is such a complicated web of experiences and trials that nobody can ever be certain, except for in a few cases, that they didn't get ahead because of discrimination. There are plenty of other reasons why people don't get ahead in life. To focus on one of them and one of them alone is to do a disservice to society, people, and the truth. If someone hasn't experienced gender discrimination, does that mean it doesn't exist? How can someone think their personal experience is exactly the same as millions of others? No it doesn't prove that gender discrimination doesn't exist simply because someone hasn't experienced it. Likewise it doesn't mean that it does exist simply because someone percieves that it does exist. Perception is how we as human beings see the world. We are not passive observers in this world. We actively construct our memories and interpretations of the situations we get into and as such we cannot just simply trust our own experiences to be gospel truth. Indeed to take one's own personal "experiences" of discrimination and project them onto society as a whole is the same error that those whom you talk about in your question commit. What it all boils down to is who has the correct view of reality, those who say that discrimination doesn't exist in the societies in which they reside or those who say that it does (i.e. who's the real madman)?

Answer 4

I think that if a person bases his whole identity on being "masculine" and having a very "masculine" job, there are bound to be problems.

I remember hearing from my midwife that a guy from California had moved into the area and was a practicing CNM. (Cert. Nurse-Midwife) She was clearly kind of annoyed by it. She even asked me defensivly, "Wouldn't you rather have a female midwive who understands what you're going through? I doubt he'll get any clients."

So I think that there will always be some discomfort when people base their identities on something like that. If fire fighters are saying to themselves, "Only a brave, strong, man like myself can handle this job.", then when a woman shows up, he'll have to challenge his own basic beliefs, and as we all know, that makes people angry.

Answer 5

This response does not necessarily address your question, but rather, addresses why men are always complaining about women not having strenuous or dangerous jobs.

Um...hello?? Does anybody actually WANT a strenuous or dangerous job if they can avoid it? I think it's just human common sense to avoid those kinds of jobs in favor of more sedentary ones (especially if you get paid more, which you often do), not any kind of feminine weakness. If men are annoyed that women aren't in these kinds of jobs, then men should also stop taking these jobs, and then the salaries would raise sharply, and then everyone would want them.

Honestly. Let's see...go out and fight fires all day, or stay inside a nice air conditioned building all day behind a desk and get paid more??? Gee I wonder...

Answer 6

My husband worked in a very male-dominated company/field, and he will be the first to tell you that women were discriminated against horribly in that company. Women were systematically fired when they became pregnant, paid far less on average, and frequently sexually harassed. Working for that company really opened his eyes to the reality of gender discrimination...and mine, too.

"North Country" is a movie based on a true story that illustrates this, as well.

Answer 7

no offense being in the infantry devision of the army i experienced racism and (sexual harrasment) but it was a 99percent male population we took showers naked with separators in between us but heck you could see

we did stupid **** like guys do

we called eachother crackers and ******* and beaners and shi7 and there were no charges of racism or sexism or any that stuff

the problem is when a woman decides to join an enviroment like that the men have to change

something they have been doing since forever with few complaints.


(((These occupations, like fire fighting, have been traditionally male-dominated jobs, so are women worried about harassment or discrimation or the danger and physical exertion?))) this question

why would u join a job if you are worried about the danger and physical exertion? women wise

i must ask how many of you are actual run into butning building and carry people out firefighters?

if not then youre just 96whisky's

Answer 8

"As the women's numbers mounted [at American Cyanamid], so did the reprisals. One day, the women arrived to find this greeting stenciled into a beam over the production floor: SHOOT A WOMAN, SAVE A JOB. Another day, the women found signs tacked on their lockers, calling them "whores." [Betty] Riggs found a violent pornographic centerfold stuffed into her locker; the note attached said, 'This is what I want to do to you.' In two separate incidents, women fended off sexual assaults in the ladies' locker room and shower stalls."

Answer 9

Doesn't surprise me a bit.