Is it not true that whenever a government tortures, spies without cause on citizens, etc..it thinks its right?

Question

and thinks it has legitimate reason to essentiall be what some would call a tyranny? Don't all those who torture, or spy without cause or oppress citizens, and put people in jail without trial for years think they have a special reason to "bend the rules of justice?

Is it not the hallmark of a true society that truly values freedoms and justice and inalienable rights of citizens, one that resists those "reasons to bend the rules"...knowing that no tyranny starts out full bore, but rather occurs in small sometimes even imperceptible increments?

Answer 1

Well, first, you're right. For the sake of fairness, no one is spying without thinking it is a matter of national security. Even tyrants think they are doing the right thing.

That being said, the problem with the current "Spy on Them for our Safety" sentiment within (for the most part) the Republican Party is two-fold.

First, it is cowardly. We are doing something we think is wrong because we are afraid of some person or people and what they might do to us.

Second, it is Ineffective. We are pretending that we know who is going to do bad things, but conveniently won't know what it is they are planning. How likely is that scenario? Isn't it more likely that an innocent person will get unjustly tortured, and/or a bad person will sneak under the radar?

Answer 2

Interesting point. However, there are a few other things to consider. There are two distinctly different kinds of force that can be employed against evil. One is law enforcement the other is military. Each uses force to accomplish it's goal. Each is valid under the correct circumstances.

In a time of peace, we rely on the Criminal Justice System to protect our lives and our property. This is done through the law enforcement part of the Criminal justice System, the police.

In time of war, we rely on the Defense Department to protect our lives and our property. This is done through the enforcement part of the Defense Department, the Military.

When the threat is clearly defined and follows the basic rules of war (yes, wars have rules, too) it is pretty easy to see how the Criminal Justice System is not able to protect us and the Defense Department is called for. These two entities use very different methods and are held to very different standards.

The issue in America today is unprecedented. We have an enemy that does not fit neatly into either of these two definitions. While hijacking an aircraft is not a new phenomina, to hijack them and use them as impromptu missiles to make military style attacks on American targets both civilian and military is new. We did not have a definition for or a policy in place to deal with such attacks.

Hijacking an airplane was always a criminal act. Flying an airplane into a target was always a military act. So what we are faced with today is a sort of hybrid form of war. Our Criminal Justice System was not capable of protecting us from such a threat if it continued to be bound by the normal rules of evidence and prosecution. Since all of the perpetrators on 9/11 were killed in the attacks, all the Criminal Justice System could do was stand on the shore and shake it's fist at Osama Bin Ladin. That would be our only available response to any further terrorist attacks, too.

The Patriot Act (if you look at it outside of all the political posturing that has taken place since it was implemented) is a pretty good balance between maintaining the protections of the law and not allowing those protections to enable the terrorists.

For instance, there are provisions that relaxed the rules regarding monitoring overseas telephone communications. A computer system was initiated to look for specific types of call patterns to certain foreign countries. More agility was provided to allow intelligence gathering agencies to tap telephone calls. People were 'spied upon' in that people of interest were monitored to see what they were up to. Enemy combtants who were taken prisoner on the battlefield were incarcerated at GITMO. Some were interrogated pretty heavily.

To my knowlege, no American citizens were rounded up in the middle of the night and tortured or imprisoned. In fact when it was discovered that some FBI agents were abusing the provisions and using the expanded wiretapping improperly they were disciplined and dismissed and the process halted.

America is unique in this world. We have a much higher level of freedom than other countries. It makes us more vulnerable, too. A balance must be maintained between security and freedom for without security there can be no freedom. I submit that what happened on 9/11 tipped that scale drastically to one side. Our governement has done a commendable job bringing us back to a state of balance. To have not done so would certainly have lead to more horrendous attacks.

We need to be forever vigilant that we do not throw the baby that is our freedom out with the bathwater of security. But to return prematurely to the status quo that got so many killed on 9/11 is remarkably stupid.

.

Answer 3

I basically agree with you. I wonder why you weren't saying anything in 2001, when they passed The Patriot Act, which basically gave the government a blanket warrant for spying on citizens.

Answer 4

The rationale that the enemy is a dirty fighter and so dirty tactics must be used to defeat him or else, is about as old as the state it self. When the US backed Argentine Junta disappeared thousands of people for the benefit of foreign investors, the excuse was the same: godless communists would destroy society if high school students were not summarily abducted and tortured.
Of course, the US has been leading that game for quite some time. Remember Clinton's Humanitarian Interventions? Please, it's just another way of sending "civilizing missions" as the British claimed to do when they set out to murder Zulus wholesale.
So no, it is not about "wicked individuals believing to be righteous", it is about oppressive governments make use Goebbels' axiom that the bigger the lie the less it will be disputed.

As for the US gov.... come on guys! wake up before it is too late. Your government has committed heinous crimes against millions of people who you thought were being "helped", now they are torturing farmers from Afghanistan to get them to "confess" to every unsolved crime in the region, activists are being barred from boarding planes!!! What makes you think the american public won't be next!

Peace... and please WAKE UP.

Answer 5

I find it quite interesting that people really believe that torture tactics are not necessary in times of war. I personally have a gentle soul and the thought of torturing someone makes my heart hurt...but as an intelligent person you have to know in this day and age that when you are dealing with enemies who have no regard for human life, who would kill your family right in front of you with no remorse...that torture can and will be used to extract information that the US needs for national security. It's reality.

Answer 6

Let me put it this way.

If I knew of someone that may know about someone else that planned to kill my wife and kids "just because". And the first someone didn't want to tell me because the someone's were friends?

I would bash the first someones toes to hamburger with a hammer and drive nails into his skull to make him talk if I had to.

ADD-WOW!
I actually got a thumbs down for that? Obviously from a lib.
So LIB, what would you do in that case? Buy him a beer and a pizza and say thanks?
That says VOLUMES about what is and is not important to you.

Answer 7

ever hear the phrase the end never justifies the means?, well it is true governments always make exceptions for themselves while imploring a double standard with other people or nations.

if they are bending the rules it is because they can't achieve their goals of world domination by respecting the rule of law. the rule of law is precisly there to prevent such tyranny.

RRRRR

Answer 8

If they catch a terrorist and he has information about an upcoming 9/11 type of attack or knows where a nuke is about to go off.
The question about torture comes up and shocking him with car battery saves lives I have three things to say:
1. Red is positive
2. Black is negative
3. Use SEARs DieHard

Answer 9

I agree in principle that a govt should have a policy against torture, but the other side is doing far worse things and so there is the rationalle that if a fighter fights dirty, the only way to fight him is dirty.

Answer 10

Amen
What kind of people use torture to get what they want?
When did the US stop being the good guys?
Were we ever?
These last few years have really put a lot of doubt in my faith in my own countries abilities to control the ambitions of greedy evil men.
And also my faith that my fellow Americans would not follow or be fooled by them.
What happened to our moral compass? I thought we got it back after civil rights and Vietnam were settled. Now there are people who want to say civil rights were a mistake and we should have killed more people in Vietnam. How did these vulturous death mongers get into power AGAIN?