Catholics: I do not condemn you, but don’t you think you should consider what your church teaches?

Question

I do not hate or condemn Catholics, I LOVE them! I just despise ALL teaching that “steals” glory from God!

In my last post, some Catholics AGREED that salvation according to the Catholic Church is BASED on grace PLUS works.

Others seemed to indicate that this is a “lie” and that the Catholic Church teaches salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

But let’s go to the Catholic source, itself (which, sorrowfully, is NOT the Bible):
"No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods" (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027).

Look, if you REALLY want to know the truth, look here:
http://www.carm.org/catholic/gospel.htm

You CAN be saved and a Christian, even if you are a Catholic. NO denomination is “perfect” in their teaching.

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But Catholics, if you have faith in Jesus Christ…even as the Nicene creed declares, and trust in Him for your salvation, by the grace of God alone…then wonderful. But let’s have no more of this nonsense about how true Catholic doctrine clearly proclaims the Gospel of grace…

Extra-Biblical writings are not inherently evil, and the writings of church fathers are invaluable. However, if these extra-Biblical writings CONTRADICT the Bible, then should we not be wary of such teaching?

Baptismal regeneration, Penance, Veneration of Mary, Purgatory, Indulgences, the Rosary, and Venial and Mortal Sins are TAUGHT in the current Catholic Church, but not in the Bible.

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Answer 1

While I may not condemn Catholics as a people, I do condemn those members of the clergy who teach that doctrine is more important that scripture. I was told that I would burn in hell for eternity when I was 10 yrs old by the monsignor of our church (I grew up a Catholic), all because I questioned the doctrine of the church. Years later I was being counselled by one of the parish priests because I had stopped attending church. When he told me that I was committing a mortal sin (where is THAT in the scriptures???), I asked him this question--Would I be committing more of a sin by attending church as a hypocrite, like the pharisees, or by not attending because I didn't believe in the teachings of the church?

He relented and told me that when God wanted me to come home, I would. I did eventually do that...but not to the Catholic Church. No religion is perfect, but some are infinitely better than others.

Answer 2

First of all, at no time has the Catholic Church ever taught that "grace plus works" bring salvation.

CCC 2027 says we merit graces. It does not say we merit salvation. Salvation comes from God alone. But it is through graces that we live our faith, and it is faith by which we come to accept God's gift of salvation.

James' epistle makes it clear that works cannot be separated from faith. Protestants make the mistake of thinking that faith and works are totally separate.

But works are not something "extra" that goes along with faith. They are a necessary part of faith.

Works are part of faith just as an engine is part of a car. It makes no sense to say that you can drive somewhere in "a car plus an engine." In the same way, we cannot speak of "faith PLUS works" as if they are unconnected. James' letter is clear on that.

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Answer 3

*Is Catholic*

I actually teach what the Church teaches to other people. And I don't care very much for people that confuse other people about the truth of Christ.

Let me tell you quite clearly and plainly first that Catholics separate justification and salvation. An individual is justified by grace alone. Justification occurs at baptism. Salvation occurs through a co-operation with grace, so it is grace plus works.

As St. Augustin says "The God who created you without you will not save you with out you." That is the Catholic Faith in a nutshell on this topic.

All individuals who wish to see the glory of heaven must journey on the path to redemption through the universal call to holiness. An individual who is justified but does not journey will not be saved for they will have refused to "become perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."

The Catechism quote that you give is quite correct.

The Catholic Church teaches the will of the Holy Spirit. She is the Body of Christ and her Head is Christ. The Church does not act in opposition to her Head but is obedient so that all that she proclaims as necessary for salvation is in fact that very command of Christ Himself.

I am afraid that you have it backwards. You can be saved if you are not Catholic. That is possible but harder for non-Catholics do not have the sacraments which help us to conform to Christ in the fullest possible manner.

It is not nonsense about the doctrine of Christ that the Church teaches.

We should be wary of writings that are against the scripture and the traditions handed down to us from the apostles. Which is why I ignore what your site has to say for I have read it and know it to be against the Gospel.

You have not read your Scriptures if you say that your list of things is not in the scripture or you imply that something needs to be in scripture for it to be of the Faith. The first ignores the evidence and takes up the teaching of men who interpret the words of the Lord to mean other than what they mean, the second is irrational for the Faith is much more than the words in a book. We are not a people of a book (as the Muslims say) rather we are a people of the Son of God, of Christ, who is the way the truth and the life.

Only by coming to Him and being gathered into the unity of His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church can we truly be said to bear the name of Christian and find peace with the Father, vivification of the Spirit, and the true hope of the world yet to come.

Stop bothering my people! Do what you will but do not drag souls down with you.

Answer 4

How do Catholics steal God's glory. And this is coming from a Protestant whose church forbids the corporeal Christ from their worship. Sometimes the hypocrisy is just overwhelming from Protestants.

I would understand from your posts that biblical hermeneutics is not a skill that you have acquired.

I think that if you had the ability to understand Scriptures properly and without prejudice you would find that all Catholic teaching is in accordance with Scriptures. Why would the Church write the Bible and then contradict it. Makes absolutely no sense but you would have us believe in this opinion of yours.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Answer 5

If you love me, keep my commandments.-John 14:15.
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God: and all these things shall be added unto you.
Fear not little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. -Luke 12:31-32.
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled -Mark 14:49.
(Just my favorite mark verse, to quote all the Gospels)
It seems our Lord had some specific works for us.
I will defer to the Lord and the Catholic Church on this one.
Keep on reading the Bible, you will find that the Catholic Church is a Bible based Church.
There is a very good discription of the trinity in the verses of John 15:16-21, in the KJV.
You would also be well informed that our primary prayer is the Lord's Prayer (which we call an Our Father) -Matthew 6:9-13.

Answer 6

the catholic church is the true faith i don,t know what happen but maybe you should talk to your priest get some advise then talk to your parents please reconsider and pray for guidance then go from there i am a catholic i left the church for about 30 years but now i,m back and very happy. i made a great mistake in leaving because of a misunderstanding. i will prayer for you sincerly denise t.

Answer 7

Question; Have you noticed that the scriptures and the 'Holy Bible' do not match in this country presently to God's disgust?
So people should not refer to the Bible, but the scriptures. (Want me to demonstrate the difference to you)? (If so, email me regarding the point here soon), Want to go further? or is demeaning others to much 'fun' on Yahoo presently?

Answer 8

I'm just wondering about the grace and works thing...if they thought salvation was just on grace...then why couldn't we all just sleep around and sodomize and murder people? Because they're sins and God does not like sins...and sins(or the lack there of) are our works which we will be judged upon...with the Grace and mercy of Jesus of course.

Answer 9

We never said that the bible was not the primary source of truth. But since there are thousands of denominations (due to erroneus personal interpretations), and the bible was written with a 2,000 year old context and style, we thought it would be a good idea to clarify things for believers today who don't think like ancient hebrews. No other church would dare to attempt that. Your question clearly shows that you have knowledge of the bible, but you do not completely understand it. No Catholic teaching contradicts the bible. If you understood the bible you would know that.

Answer 10

First, housekeeping - Evan B, Indulgences ARE still part of Catholicism.

Now to the point....

Catholicism in practice holds that faith saves a person, but faith encompasses more than intellectual assent to certain truth claims about Jesus - it includes obedience to and participation in a community of the faith, loving others as ourselves, observance of sacraments, etc.