Order without a designer?

Question

--Snowflakes crystallizing in intricate shapes due to changes in temperature and position

--Iron filings arranging into formation as a result of the presence of a magnetic field

--Rock forming into hexagonal patterns because it is the most stable, repeatable geometric shape


Do these count as examples of order without design? If not, why not?


http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/faqs/faqs.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt#Types_of_basalt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnets

Answer 1

The problem is that someone who believes in ID would claim that those aren't examples of order without design, because God designed those too.

The trick is that proponents of ID assume that God designed everything, so any example you point to as an example of order without design is refutable because they believe it IS an example of design.

ID'ers are tricky that way. "Oh, I just have a different worldview than evolutionists. Ignore that I completely misunderstand the German technical usage of the term worldview and the scientific usage of the term evolution."

Answer 2

If there can be a complex, orderly Designer who was not designed, then there can be anything without the need of a designer. Snowflakes, for example, form in a very orderly fashion - always six sides and each side is exactly the same. This is due to the basic properties of water and how H2O forms chemical bonds. No one designs each and every snowflake - nature makes it happen on its own. The same thing happens with everything else in the Universe. It really isn't that complex at all.

Answer 3

Yes, yes, yes! These are examples of nature bringing itself *naturally* into order. It blows their entire "intelligent design" theory out of the water. It's evidence that complexity does not require a designer.

To say otherwise is to claim that God takes the time to pre-design every snowflake that has ever fallen. Each and every one of the trillions and trillions that have ever fallen, because no two are the same, of course. As if this God would have nothing else to do but make pretty little snowflakes, given the billions and billions of planets he has to look out over.

Thank you for bringing this up.

WORDMAN: No, it's not because I don't *want* there to be a God. It's because it's ignorant to say some invisible fairy created eveything, when the logic of science clearly tells us otherwise. Just because you *want* the universe to have been designed, doesn't mean it was. Sorry.

AMELIE: Flip a coin 100,000 times. Approximately 50,000 times, it will come up heads. Is God involved in making sure that happens? Of course not. "Randomness" is not as random as you think. And even if the existence of anything at all in our universe *were* against the odds, the fact that it's all here is proof enough that the odds were beaten.

Answer 4

Order is perfectly plausible in the presence of guiding laws and forces.

However, your examples aren't organic, so I doubt it'll do you any good to use them. Assuming you were going to try and use them to support evolution, of course. It's as flawed as the fundie Watchmaker argument. A false analogy. About the best you can hope for is that they will realize their own false anaolgies and learn something about logic.

Answer 5

Allow me to point out something interesting about the interactions of matter and energy. If the matter obeys any sort of "operating rules" as a consequence of its natural existence then, when energy flows out of the matter, an orderly structure results. For example, when liquid water is at its freezing point, removing additional calories causes crystalline ice to form, as defined by the physical properties of a water molecule. A similar phenomenon also occurs when molten lava cools and becomes a crystalline solid. This is the law of entropy in action. Two molecules of ozone spontaneously decompose into three molecules of oxygen because there is less total energy in three oxygen molecules than in two ozone molecules. Chemical entropy applies to the entire non-living universe. Losing energy spontaneously creates order; gaining energy spontaneously creates disorder.

The realm of living organisms temporarily inverts the law of entropy. (...where "temporarily" means "while still alive.") A living organism, for example a tree, has a metabolism which allows a continuous flow of energy to pass through the organism and meet its dynamic needs. A small portion of the organism's metabolic energy is diverted to grow the organism's physical body. In this way larger, more complex molecules are created because metabolic energy is used to provide the energy required to oppose entropy and form the necessary chemical bonds in the more complex molecule. This is the opposite of non-living entropy. In life, the larger and more complicated an organism is, the more energy is stored in its chemical bonds. When a piece of dead wood is burned, normal entropy applies and the solar energy stored in the wood's structure is removed, resulting in a disordered pile of ashes.

Note that in both directions, living and non-living, energy flows into and out of a chemical structure, which spontaneously becomes either more or less ordered. Creating and destroying order, without an actively participating deity is thus a natural property of the living and non-living universe. It is the unique ability of DNA to pass a structural design from one generation to the next that allows life to temporarily evade entropy and create order from stored metabolic energy.

Here's the zinger: it is the nearly immortal structure of the DNA molecule itself which creates generation after generation of nearly identical organisms. When a change does occur in DNA, it is forever. ...forever in the sense that all descendents after the change, carry the change. Usually, the change is detrimental and that line eventually dies out. Occasionally, the change is a benefit and the slightly improved line prospers. It is important to understand that all of these processes are perfectly natural and that no creator was ever required to create increasing order within living organisms. In a way, the mystery of life is simply a naturally occuring inversion of the principle of entropy. It's all about the flow of energy into and out of an ordered chemical structure.

Answer 6

Of course there is order without a designer. The items you list are just a few of many one could use here. who designed the designer is a question believers never answer sensibly. They often just say their deity always existed. well, it is simpler and more reasonable to say the universe always existed. Saying gods exist creates many problems but really solves none at all.

Answer 7

Great question. It goes to the point: If creationists believe that everything that exhibits "design" in nature must have been "intelligently designed", then there are no designs that are not 'intelligentlly designed', and if this is their position, then what does 'intelligent design' mean? In order to have examples of 'intelligent design' you must also have examples of 'non-intelligent design'.

Answer 8

I dont think faith has anything to do with intelligence.

It has everything to do with in which direction you use your intelligence.

There is order and there is chaos in the universe. Some see the order and revel, some see the chaos and protest.

The wise see both and ignore it. Because ultimately, it means: ying + yang= neutral

Answer 9

I think it's all a matter of perspective. Some people see those things and think it means there must be a higher power behind it. Others realize that sometimes simply chaotic nature can produce beauty.

Answer 10

Wish my biological order was perfect like a snowflake...