I like to debate with bible thumpers about the existence of god and creationism vs evolution. Any info you could share with me and your other fellow atheists to spread the word of common sense would be greatly appreciated. Can the christians please stay out of this for a change? I doubt it...
2007-09-29 19:24:47 · 31 answers · asked by Anonymous in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
cadisneygirl76 is completely right. I used bad wordage on this question. I am more interested in furthering my own beliefs. Any interesting facts people will offer is all I'm after.
2007-09-29 19:41:12 · update #1
And I'm sorry if christians are feeling excluded. I was just trying to make the point that I didn't ask this question to debate God. If you read the question, it doesn't give you a reason to answer, apart from picking a fight. That wasn't the point of the question
2007-09-29 19:44:59 · update #2
I just bought "GOD...The Failed Hypothesis," by Victor Stenger.
[subtitle] How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist.
I read it yesterday and discovered some new things!
We all know that creationists are trying to couch their ridiculous ideas in pseudo-science. That is dangerous because stupid people might actually believe those theories have any merit.
But the REALLY interesting thing is how this author scientifically analyzes most of the great creationism arguments and refutes the pseudo-science these muffle-heads meter out.
For instance, one argument that had me a little flummoxed was the "Fine Tuning Problem." (page 147)
Because of popularized (dumbed-down) quasi-science TV shows, people misunderstand the simplistic statements these entertainment shows make. That is very evident in how believers insist that because certain aspects of our universe are ideal for our life here, they assume that all these variables were "fine-tuned" by some invisible hand.
The electromagnetic force is determined by a dimensionless parameter called the "fine structure constant," which pseudo-scientists argue is fine-tuned far from its natural value... ergo, by a god.
However, it is NOT constant. The incredibly successful "Standard Model" of particle physics proves this elemental force, ( and others) CHANGED VARY RAPIDLY during the first few moments of the big bang.
Not only that, but life-forming complexity CAN evolve in universes with slightly or even vastly different parameters.
Stenger provides concise clear explanations that any literate person can understand without much math or specialized scientific training. If you passed high-school science, you will get understand this book! Highly recommended!
Here is my favorite “discovery” in this book: All “fine-tuning” arguments for a creator are bogus because the apparent fine tuning is merely a result of our units of measurement. The first thing any REAL scientist learns is how to use the appropriate units when measuring and manipulating data. What LOOKS like fine tuning is really just the appearance of tuning” because the measurements are so incredibly accurate. To be meaningful, ANY formula or equation that describes a phenomenon must be in proper relativistic terms. That way, the formula remains true for ALL observers at ALL times.
Another bogus bit of BAD science is in how they (creationists, / ID dorks) attempt to “prove” the universe can only exist the way it does because if you change one parameter of the four basic forces just the tiniest amount, then we have problems making suns last long enough without scorching the Earth. Well… that’s TRUE, if we completely ignore all the other variables! If you change ONE thing in the Grand Goldie-Locks zone… you must also change all the other “fine-tuned” forces to create a realistic model, and therefore a valid argument.
This excellent book is different than my two other favorite books on this subject by Richard Dawkins, “The God Delusion” and “An Ancestor’s Tale.” The primary difference is in the broad debunking of scientific arguments. Dawkins does that too, but his focus is primarily on Zoological evidence for Evolution. (Makes sense, he is a professor of zoology!) The Great Dawkins himself says he learned an enormous amount from this book by Stenger. That’s HIGH praise indeed!
Please buy a copy and read it soon. It does a much better job than I can here in this limited format. It is LOADED with references and footnotes, as all scientific papers usually are. It is VERY well-organized and well written.
It’s the best new source for info that helps debunk the many fallacies of creationism.
This is especially true if you need to debate a stone-walling, half-informed pseudo-scientific ID Dummy.
Best wishes!
2007-09-30 02:13:42 · answer #1 · answered by Aleph Null 5 · 0⤊ 1⤋
Thumpers generally don't understand evolution well enough to do anything more than react to it with parroted responses like
How could something as wonderful as (insert wonderful living organism here) happen without a creator?
How did something as complex as (insert complex thing here) evolve without a creator?
to simple bible references like
It says in the Bible that God created (whatever) on day (whenever)
implication "and what do you say to that! HuH!??"
Unfortunately the genuine questions (i.e. the ones which don't get into a slanging match about whether the Bible is true or not) involve a bit more thought than Bart Simpson would be comfy with, and I think the best way is to point people towards their own research, so at least you have some common ground to start a discussion.
Hey dude, if I read John, can you read wikipedia on Evolution is often a good way to start out. Often enough, their reading will do your hard work for you, if they are sincere in how they try to understand things - and you may get feedback like
"Perhaps God designed animals so they could evolve"
or
"Perhaps God created the cosmic soup"
and you can then hit the deeper stuff like
"Why would you even need a God to make that happen"
and hit into the anthropic principle.
...works for me anyway :-)
best of luck.
2007-09-29 19:45:46 · answer #2 · answered by Twilight 6 · 2⤊ 0⤋
Answer: You can not apply the scientific method to a belief.
Creationism isn't a science but a belief. Evolution is a scientific theory that explains scientific facts using the scientific method. There is no debate between the two.
Existence of God can not be proved by science nor is it proved in the bible.
Atheism is a belief that there is no God. Theism is a belief that there is.
You may like to debate with the "bible thumpers" on these beliefs, but why bother. You would only be chasing the wind.
2007-09-29 19:35:03 · answer #3 · answered by J. 7 · 5⤊ 0⤋
Not so much info but another piece of food for thought . If the Christians trapped in the cycle of love and hate which they preach both so well were to lose the catharsis of condemnation and hell fire what would their fear and hatred become .think about it how can you supplant delusion with truth without disaster in the process . any game plan or paradigm for a pacifier for those hard core believers dashed by reality am I off or is this worth consideration.
also they claim god created the sea and said that it was good ;just what is so good about tsunami.
Ever notice of all the gifts of prophecy that's seeing into the future no one saw television telephones ipods computers and the like what kind of vision could miss so much ?
2007-09-29 19:50:00 · answer #4 · answered by dogpatch USA 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
You know what Hoss? This is so easy. I have no sources to quote. I don't need any. Man is inherently neurotic and is desperately seeking approval from someone larger than himself. At least science leaves the floor open to question. They might not have all the answers..but wow...they sure know how to ask the right questions...yes?
2007-09-29 19:45:18 · answer #5 · answered by Chaz 6 · 2⤊ 0⤋
The Berkley site and TalkOrigins.org are the best references I've found for evidence of evolution. Just about any claim a creationist makes can be refuted with the TalkOrigins site.
2007-09-29 19:34:34 · answer #6 · answered by the_way_of_the_turtle 6 · 3⤊ 0⤋
Religion is just a man made creation that was devised by poor people. It has continued through the brainwashing of their children and then separated through different peoples into their specific own styles and wants. Religions and gods were in most cases just created to justify mans own inadequacies.
The world would be a better place without any religions and gods whatsoever.
The Bible and all other religions have only fueled hate and wars from the time of all their inceptions. As long as there are religions there will be wars.
There is not one good thing that has ever come from religion.
Its always resulted in someone having to die.
2007-09-29 19:27:50 · answer #7 · answered by Anonymous · 6⤊ 4⤋
Well, you could direct them to The Vatican Secret Archives website - http://asv.vatican.va/home_en.htm.
Catholicism is still the world's largest Christian denomination, and there's a search box for the secret archives. Tell the hyper-Christians to use it instead of Google or MapQuest or Wikipedia. Unless, of course, they really don't believe in God.
2007-09-29 19:35:06 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 1⤋
"end of Religion" Sam Harris ( pretty sure thats the title ) great book first half is on muslims second half is christianity ,, some very funny parts as well ... a new interenet movie called Zeitgiest really opened my eyes to alot of stuff i didnt know check it out on brasscheck.com
2007-09-29 19:35:44 · answer #9 · answered by nietzsches_right 3 · 2⤊ 0⤋
What is a Bible Thumpers anyway,?
Sending you a smile to help pick up your day.
2007-09-29 19:32:03 · answer #10 · answered by Prof Fruitcake 6 · 2⤊ 0⤋