If THEY could be saved without so much as ever HEARING of Christ, then why did Jesus need to die? And if baptism into Christ only became neccessary AFTER Christ's ressurection, didn't His coming actually make things WORSE...?!? The loyal Jews who died before Christ came either went to Heaven or to Hell... if they went to Heaven, then faith in Christ is unneccessary. If they went to Hell, then Christ should've come a lot earlier, so they could've been saved too! If Christ is so darned important, how come nobody heard of him in the time of Abraham and Moses? They thought obeying YHVH loyally was enough, and He never said a word to inform them otherwise... (P.S. if you say that Christ came to them after their deaths and gave them the word, then you contradict the words of the New Testament, which teach no second chance after death. And if THEY got a second chance, why not US?!?)
2007-09-26 15:15:01 · 22 answers · asked by Anonymous in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
God has always expected His followers to obey Him, but it is not possible to obey a command that has not yet been issued.
Abraham, Moses, and everyone else is required to follow God's instructions that were in effect during their life.
Baptism was commanded for the dispensation in which we now live. Other things that were required during the time of Abraham an Moses are not required now (animal sacrifices, circumcision, etc.). We should obey the commands that were given for us!
In fact, Abraham and Moses did not have the same set of rules to follow. For example, Abraham would not have observed the Passover since this command had not been issued during his lifetime and the event this was a reminder of had not yet occurred. You can't remember something that had not yet happened!
As for believing in Jesus, Abraham and Moses did believe, but they did so from a different perspective! God had given a promise of a Messiah to come, and they believed this promise; looking to the future for the one that would come!
I'm sure they did not understand completely about Jesus, and they did not have the complete story that we now can see, but they believed God and believed in his promises!
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God!" (Romans 10:17) Abraham and Moses believed based on the amount of God's Word that had been revealed during their life!
They will be judged on how faithfully they lived during their life! Those who lived faithfully, following God's word, will be saved by Christ's blood that came after them. Those who live faithfully today will be saved by that same blood. The only difference is we can know a little more about how God's plan of redemption has been layed out!
2007-09-28 14:40:37 · answer #1 · answered by JoeBama 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM. The blood of Jesus washes away the sin not water from some stream. It is only a "showing" of the cleansing of the body from the way you use to live. Baptism does not save you, Jesus does. Abraham loved the Lord in all things even as far as to give his son to the Lord. The Law of God is completely seperate from the New Testament. You are not to be "loyal" to God any way. You are to make Him Master of all you are, heart and soul and mind so I would classify that as "obsession" not loyalty. How can you even say that if Abraham got a second chance after he died why can't we? Can you follow the Law of God and never stumble? Abraham did. Moses stumbled but he recieved his punishment. We all get second chances every day to come to the Lord, how many times have you listened?
2007-09-26 15:38:07 · answer #2 · answered by Angela E 2 · 1⤊ 1⤋
Your question does show that you have logically thought this out, but there are a couple of points that may clarify it for you. First no one went to heaven before Christi died. They could not because the atonement had not been paid. There was an intermediary place called Hades that was made up of two parts, Sheol and Paradise. That is where all souls went before Christ died. When Christ died, He liberated Paradise and all went to heaven. Second the OT is full of teaching about Christ. You just need to take a casual look at it. For one, the whole sacrificial system was a preview of the coming Messiah who would die for all. Remember John the Baptist said, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". He was speaking of Christ, and the Lamb was a reference to the Levitical sacrificial system.
2007-09-26 15:32:03 · answer #3 · answered by oldguy63 7 · 1⤊ 1⤋
Because there is no such concept in Judaism as needing to be "saved", nor of some Zoroastrian rip off idea of eternal hellfire that Christianity has. Judaism doesn't even have the concept of either going to heaven or hell. We have reincarnation, always have.
The World To Come (in Judaism), that is, after the real Messiah comes and actually fulfills all the prophecies, etc. and there really IS world peace and all of that, will be here on this earth. It is this earth, perfected. It is not some "heaven" far away up in the clouds.
Nor has it EVER been the role of the Messiah to serve as some pagan virgin human blood sacrifice for sin, for anyone.
In Judaism, the concept of the Messiah is totally different than what Christianity has. Born of a virgin and a god, nope. born in the usual way between a married Jewish man and wife, yep. Grows up, marries, has sons to whom he leaves an inheritance, rules from the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem, yep yep yep. Fulfills ALL of the prophecies in his lifetime - or he simply isn't the real Messiah. No second coming.
So you can see what a huge difference these things alone are in Judaism from what Christianity has. This is just the tip of the iceberg, really none of the two religions' foundational doctrines and beliefs s are the same.
http://www.jewfaq.com/toc.htm
Furthermore it is idolatry to place anything in front of God to have to go through to GET to God, and that includes making God into a man, or a man into God, and then inserting this man into God as a part of God. All of this comes from ancient paganism, not Judaism. God is not a man, as it says several times in the Torah.
On and on and on, etc. So the idea that baptism into christ is the only path to heaven is completely irrelevant to Judaism, including Abraham, Moses, etc. on just about every level.
2007-09-26 15:25:42 · answer #4 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 2⤋
They are saved by God's grace through their righteous deeds and faith in God. Christ's sacrifice was already set up to apply to all who believed in God: Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8) You are making an argument (only those who lived during or after Christ's crucifixion are saved) that isn't supported by scripture. This isn't a second chance (Orthodoxy does not teach Limbo); it's application of salvation to those who were patiently waiting for it. Blessings. /Orthodox
2016-05-19 21:09:48 · answer #5 · answered by ? 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
How do you know they werent baptized? The Bible isnt exactly a day to day record. John the Baptist was baptizing people before Christ was baptized so why the assumption that it was only after Christ that baptism was important?
Noone is going to burn in eternal damnation because they werent baptized while alive. What kind of God would be that cruel?
Where does it say no second chance after this life????? It specifically said that after Christ was crucified he went and taught others.
Say whatever you want about mormons and their beliefs, I am glad I wasnt raised with some of these traditional christian beliefs like good people burning in hell and no second chances. That God sounds incredibly unfair and cruel.
2007-09-26 15:24:57 · answer #6 · answered by cadisneygirl 7 · 1⤊ 1⤋
See Romans 4. There is one word that even is required today - Faith. Even though the process of serving God has changed, faith is still most important to God. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews also explains it well. Faith and belief result in our serving God. Works and ritual are not accepted.
Romans 4
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
2007-09-26 15:32:27 · answer #7 · answered by JohnFromNC 7 · 0⤊ 1⤋
The old testament people obeyed the commandments and loved God. They went to paradise and the unbelievers went to hell. When Jesus died he went to paradise and took them to heaven to be with God. The scriptures told of a coming messiah and this is what they believed would happen.
2007-09-26 15:21:37 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 1⤋
Hebrews 11 says they looked ahead with faith to the coming of the Savior. We look back at the finished work of the Savior Jesus Christ.
(I hope by baptism into Christ, that you meant the spiritual inclusion into Jesus. Because water baptism doesn't save anyone)
2007-09-26 15:18:34 · answer #9 · answered by CJ 6 · 3⤊ 2⤋
First we need to get some things straight, baptism does not bring salvation, faith does. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Those who died before Christ died, bringing about the New Covenant were saved through faith, faith in God and the promises He made to them. Their faith counted as righteousness. They looked forward to the coming Messiah, we look back.
Gal 3:6 Even "as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness," (Gen 15:6 )
Gal 3:7 know, then, that those of faith, these are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed" "in you." (Gen. 12:3)
Secondly, salvation is based on God's choosing, not on anything we do. God chooses out those for salvation, whether the lived before Christ or after.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in, and will go out, and will find pasture.
Act 2:47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the assembly, the ones being saved from day to day.
Eph 2:5 even we being dead in deviations, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that He might demonstrate in the ages coming on, the exceeding great riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;
Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.
2007-09-26 15:30:35 · answer #10 · answered by BrotherMichael 6 · 0⤊ 1⤋