John 8:58 Before Abraham was I AM?

Question

Why is it that JWs and Mormons say that Jesus isn't God when He said in John 8:58 "Before Abraham was I AM" -- the exact same thing that God said to Moses from the burning bush?

Answer 1

Because they are both cult who don't acknowledge God as coming in the flesh as Scripture says. JW's say Jesus was a created angel. Mormons say Jesus was the brother of the devil and that would mean that once again Jesus is an angel. HERESY!

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”? Heb. 1:5

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Tim. 3:16

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who DO NOT CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH. This is a DECEIVER and an antichrist. 2 John 7

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

I and My Father are one. John 10:30

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Wait a minute..the Word became flesh?...Logically that is JESUS!

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word(JESUS), and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Col. 2:9

Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Gen. 1:26

God can't lie. Titus 1:2

Answer 2

Because at John 8:58 Jesus was actually illustrating how long he has existed.

Many Bible versions render John 8:58 this way: "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

And Ex. 3:14 this way: "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

(Because of this, Trinitarians often refer to this as 'proof' that Jesus is the Hebrew GOD of the O.T.)

But are the words "I am" supposed to be God's name? Even if it were so, would it make sense in John 8:58 for Jesus to say the equivalent of, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was...JEHOVAH?!?"

Looking at the context, the correct phrasing of this sentence should be "I was" instead of "I am" when used after the word "before." Also in verse 57, the question to which Jesus was replying had to do WITH AGE, not identity.

During the exchange with the Jews leading up to John 8:58, NOWHERE DOES JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD. And as we've already seen, the words "I am" at John 8:58 (including the blatant unwarranted use of capitalization) is not only inaccurate but nonsensical.

Several translations phrase John 8:58 the correct way by which Jesus was actually illustrating how long he has existed. One, for instance:

"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS EVEN BORN!" (NLT)

Besides that, numerous TRINITARIAN authorities even have to admit that "I am" in Ex. 3:14 is not even correct and should be rendered more like "I will Be" (the MEANING OF God's name rather than God's personal name itself...Jehovah):

Encyclopedia Britannica:

"The writer of Exodus 3:14-15 ... explains it [the meaning of God's name] by the phrase EHYEH asher EHYEH (Ex. iii., 14); this can be translated `I am that I am' or more exactly `I am wont to be that which I am wont to be' or `I will be that which I will be.'" - p. 995, 14th ed., v. 12.

Recommended Related Articles:

John 8:58 - The Translation “I Am” is Verbal Nonsense and Grammatically Erroneous
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/08/john-858-translation-i-am-is-verbal.html

I AM (John 8:58 / Ex. 3:14) - Links to Information
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/08/john-858-translation-i-am-is-verbal.html

Answer 3

It begs this question. Who is the Word? We know that Jesus is. And if so in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and if we read the Word so was the Holy Spirit. All three were there when man was created. It never ceases to amaze me that people call into questio the great "I AM". As the Word states He DOES NOT CHANGE. He will be the I AM and God forever. No matter what we say here on line or anywhere else.

Answer 4

I am a Mormon we do believe Jesus is a God just not God the father. Jesus is the great "I AM" And that he is the God of the Old Testament. He is our Redeemer and Savior, he created the earth, and the body of Adam and Eve under the direction of the Father "God". We just don't believe he is one person. Jesus is the literal son of God who came down to earth received a mortal body and was resurrected then returned to heaven at which time the father God gave him all that he had making him an equal to God the father. He is, was, and always will be one of the three members of the Godhead.

Answer 5

Jesus was present at creation; and he was 'the Lord' (not lord) at the burning bush, too; despite the addition to God's word in this country commonly referred to presently as the Red Letter edition (roughly 100 years old).

Answer 6

Perhaps it is because it is not the "exact same thing" as spoken at the burning bush. I realize that this is a favorite scripture for those who sincerely believe that Jesus is God Almighty. I can understand that. But in truth, the phrase spoken in Exodus is not at all the same as that spoken in Matthew.

Moreover, the fact that the Pharisees were going to stone Jesus for [perceived] blasphemy does not make Jesus guilty of blasphemy, does it? They also accused him of breaking the Sabbath but we know that Christ never did any such thing. Had he broken the Sabbath, he would have violated God's law. Had he violated God's law, the Bible could not say that he kept God's law perfectly. Had he not kept the law perfectly, he would not be able to provide the ransom sacrifice since he would be a sinner. No, the position of the Pharisees that he was guilty of blasphemy is hardly support that Jesus is God.

But again, the two phrases are not the same though many people think so. I shall edit this response with further information concerning the two phrases if you wish.

Hannah J Paul

EDIT: Here is additonal information if you are so inclined to understand why Witnesses take the stand that they do. See also TeeM’s response below.

At John 8:58, Jesus said to those unbelieving Jews: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Jerusalem Bible.

Did Jesus here identify himself as being Jehovah God? “Yes!” some say. “He said the exact same thing talking to Moses!” Is that truly so?

“Yes, that is so!” they insist, after all, didn’t God tell Moses, at Exodus 3:14, “‘I Am who I Am? Didn’t he also say This is what you must say to the sons of Israel: “I Am has sent me to you”’”? Jesus and Jehovah are the same!”

It is quite true that many translations use the expression “I Am” both at John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. But do both texts express the same thought?

No. Why do I say that? Because at Exodus 3:14 the Greek Septuagint Version (the translation that was often quoted by the apostles in the first century C.E.) reads, e·go´ ei·mi´ ho Ohn, “I am the Being.” This is quite different from the simple use of the words e·go´ ei·mi´ (I am) at John 8:58. The verb ei·mi´ at John 8:58 is apparently in the historical present; Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abraham’s past. Numerous translators indicate this as well. Thus, the New World Translation is by no means the only Bible which uses such phraseology as “before Abraham came into existence I have been.” For example, An American Translation reads: “I existed before Abraham was born!”

Note the rendering in other translations:

Chas. Williams’ The New Testament: “Then Jesus said to them, ‘I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born.’”

A. S. Lewis’ “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest: “He said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I have been.”

The Twentieth Century New Testament: “‘Believe me,’ Jesus replied, ‘before Abraham was born I was already what I am.’”

G. M. Lamsa’s The Modern New Testament: “Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I was.”

Jas. Murdock’s The Syriac New Testament: “Jesus said to them: Verily, verily, I say to you, That before Abraham existed, I was.”

F. Pfaefflin’s Das Neue Testament (German): “Jesus: ‘Before there was an Abraham, I was already there [war ich schon da]!’”

At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says concerning this phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’” This work goes on to say concerning the phrase “I am that I am:

“. . . the emphasis is on the active manifestation of the Divine existence.” Thus, this use as a title or name for God was appropriate because by delivering them from Egyptian slavery, God was about to manifest his existence in behalf of his people in an outstanding way.

Yes, the expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. There is therefore nothing in this verse upon which to base the teaching that Jesus is here identifying himself as Jehovah God.

Answer 7

John 8:58 was translated to support the Trinity. This verse can be translated I was present, I have been, or I existed.

Which is the correct translation?

Jehovah said "ego eimi ho on" in Exodus, but Jesus said ego eimi in John 5:58, which shows he didn't go by that title.

ho on means "the one who is" or "the being", and this is something Jesus didn't say.

Update: Exodus contains the predicate "ho on", so it cannot point to a identity.

Answer 8

Depending on which Bible translation you're reading from.
Mine is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures and at John 8:58 it reads: "Before Abraham came into existecence I have been."

reference scriptures:
Proverbs 8:22
John 17:5
Phillipans 2:6
Collossians 1:17

Both Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormans are correct in saying that Jesus IS NOT GOD. Please read the reference scriptures and you will understand.

Answer 9

I believe that it is called "selective reading." The cults all have this in common. They select a few verses out of the Bible and build a doctrine on them. They don't read the Bible as a whole and let it interpret itself. Cults are very much like "rat poison". They mix some good food in with the bad - just enough to get the rat to swallow it and it kills them.

Answer 10

Even the unsaved Pharisees understood that Jesus called Himself God (John 10).