Those that give lessons, what would you do in this situation....?

Question

I just started giving lessons to some fellow boarders at my barn. They are 60 yr old twin sisters. Greener than grass.

They finally have bought 2 of their own horses and so now we are saddle fitting etc. I feel pretty knowledgable about fitting after everything I have been through with my mule. So I am helping them get the proper tack. One bought a circle Y flextree from a local saddle shop and it fits perfect. The other has a wide cob sized QH almost pony size and its proving to be a bugger to fit.

So for now, she is riding on my mules wide saddle. Until we get her set up. So today she shows up with a Tucker Saddle and the local saddle lady promised her it would fit. Well, it doesn't It is pinching into his muscular shoulders and has too much rock to it in the back. So I told her that.

Plus they bought a curb bit because someone told them that their 14 yr old horse, should be in a curb, when its in a snaffle its whole life.

Will add details

These gals are learning to ride, so I want the horse to stay in a snaffle to teach them. Then when they are confident, maybe move it up to a curb. So this saddle shop lady gives them a bunch of muck about how they should ride etc.

So, now they have asked me to haul this horse to the saddle shop for them, which I will. I know the saddle shop is probably going to try to sell them a saddle no matter what and I doubt it will fit. The SS lady knocked me by saying I didn't know the gullet size in my own saddle that I had written down for the saddle shop lady. Theres a reason why I bought that saddle, for that 9.5in gullet.

So I am beginning to see what is going to happen. I have forwarned these ppl that I want no confortation with her, if we don't agree, I will just load up the horse and go. They can deal with the money aspect of it.

What would your advice be?? I am really not getting paid alot for these lessons, just kinda helping them out. So not really sure what to do.

Answer 1

Mulereiner, you are a saint to give these ladies lessons. But there's no reason for you to get mired in a situation that is not only already frustrating, but could be potentially irritating and hurtful to their horses.

It might seem harsh, but I've seen this type before. I'd suggest to you that you take a stand now.

You can tell them, for example, you'll give them lessons but not do these extra things like saddle fitting and so forth as part of a committee. They can either take your advice or leave you completely out of it.

Or, of course, you could just say you can't give them lessons at all if they are going to disregard your advice. Suggest that they try it your way for some period of time (3 months, 6 months) and if it's not working they can go seek someone else's advice.

As far as the bit goes, you can just say brightly, "That's wonderful! You'll have that all ready to go when you graduate from the snaffle." That way it becomes something to work toward rather than "the wrong choice."

Of course, the right time for that curb may never come, but at least you can save the poor horse from going straight from a snaffle to a curb bit for the time being . You might also demonstrate how the bits work in the mouth so they can understand how much stronger a curb is. I've really learned a lot from time to time when my trainer holds a bit in position and shows me exactly how it works in my horse's mouth, then I can understand the bit's action and see why one is harsher than another. Beginners have no idea what the bit does, or even where it sits in the mouth, how the leverage works, etc.

Sure, they may think you're heartless and mean if you put your foot down. But they're going to think that anyway if they continue to take conflicting advice from all sorts of people, and then later you have to have some kind of showdown. Or they'll blame you when their horse is acting up due to the wrong bit and saddle.

It's kinda like working with the horses; in order for them to learn from you they have to accept you as a leader. Unless there is a compelling reason you need the money they're paying, my take would be to do the hard thing sooner rather than later.

Answer 2

This is what I would do in your situation. First is that if these gals are beginners without good hands, putting these horses in curb or any other leverage bit is just asking for trouble. If their riding goals increase as their skill level increases, you can address bitting at a later date.
Saddle fit is always a challenge. Some folks need a visual to demonstrate this. Such as taking corn starch or talcum powder to the horses back, putting the saddle on without a pad, remove the saddle and show them where the saddle makes contact and where there is no powder is where the saddle is bridging. You can also saddle and girth the horse normally and show them how the horses scapula rotates back with each stride (have them put their hand between the horses shoulder and the saddle when you do this) They will be able to feel the interference when you move the horse for them. I also suggest reading some of Len Browns stuff. He was the originator of the Ortho Flex saddle system (the first company, not the current one) and a wealth of saddle fitting information. Hope some of this helps. As for who they should be listening to...well that is a trust issue and a lack of experience on their part. Eventually they will figure out the local saddle ladies interest will wain at the close of each sale.

Answer 3

Into the life of every horsewoman... You have got yourself a situation, all right. These ladies are going to become extremely confused in a quick hurry between you and the SS. I get this in my life with a regularity ExLax is jealous of. So and so said to do it THIS way. I reply: "Every person on earth has their own methods. While you are here, you will be enjoying my methods. Clear your mind of everything else for the time you are here. I will be glad to share what I know and hope it is of value to you. If not, I hope you learn what you need from the next person on your list. I will try to be fair and teach you how to best ride and enjoy your horse, so please try to be open minded and willing."
Take them to the shop for the saddle fitting, which is a very nice, above and beyond thing to do. I would also be loading the horse back up and going home if the SS got in my face. I hate that kind of thing with a passion. Maybe you can explain to the ladies beforehand just why the saddle needs to fit a certain way and what the benefits to them and the horse will be, plus the negatives of a bad fitting, awesome looking bargain will be so you don't have to have this conversation of front of the SS, who will be talking to sell a peapod to a pea. Let them know the snaffle is a requirement for lessons, the curb is a graduate bit they will earn in time.
...Those you are kindest to tend to take the most advantage.

Answer 4

I would ask the ladies who do they want to teach them you or the saddle shop lady. Then explain to the ladies that for now they need to follow one persons advice. Later when they learn more they will have the experience to choose what to believe and to pick and choose good advice from various trainers. But for now they simply need to follow your advice the best they can. This will result in you being able to teach them what you know better.

I agree with you on everything except the curb. But that is because I trail ride and I do not put green people on a horse on the trail in a snaffle. My concern is that the horse may run off regardless of how calm or how well trained it is. Instead I teach people (and horses) to ride with the reins instead of the bit. The horse should be controlled with a fingers pressure no more.

But then again these are your students so teach them your way. I was just describing my preferences there. Besides I know many people who trail in snaffles.

Answer 5

To avoid confrontation, bring the horse by yourself. She knows you and probably will not try to screw you over on the deal. Once you find a saddle or two that you like in the price range set by the rider, then I would call the riders to come in and check out possible saddles. If anything , just have them wait in the car so the tack shop owner cannot push them either way.

I ride a lot of draft and draftcrosses (wide horses), and the best western saddles we have found to fit them is a cordura synthetic saddle. They don't make them like they used to (they have a tree actually, my first one didn't, and was only $200 new, price went up and style changed a bit), but there are quite a few options from arab to full QH bar to draft. Here is a link for some options: http://www.horse.com/depts/maindept-17__dept-110.html


As for the bit- tell them you will not train them to use a curb. Basic lessons should be done in a snaffle anyways, as long as the horse responds to it. A snaffle is a great bit, both for beginner rider and/or horse, and truthfully, I never move out of them. I have trained quite a few horses, and refuse to move to something harsher than the snaffle. If a harsher bit is needed, most of the time it can be fixed by simple training, not sticking something more harsh in their mouth.

Answer 6

Well, my sister's experience with Tucker dealers a few years ago was fantastic. She's tried two Tuckers, both fit the horses fine, but KILLED her, uhm, let's say inner thigh.

Both times, when she returned her clean-as-new ridden once saddle, they gave her a 100 % refund. This particular Tucker dealer gets an A+ in the guarantee department.

The Custom Tree & Saddle Company (Steele saddles) is another reputable company. With a refundable deposit, they will send you a "trial" saddle. They know their stuff...

www.trailridingsaddles.com will be getting my next saddle purchase. NICE FOLKS. They sell a Henry Miller saddle (Eli Miller's nephew) and they are very thorough, want measurements of the horse and pictures to help decide which tree to use. (If you're curious, I'm getting a Plantation Trail in dark chestnut with English fenders and rigging.)

You're guiding these ladies towards good horsemanship...so I think I'd have to teach them a bit about bits and their purposes. I have always ridden with the mildest bit the horse required. I love the different "looks" you can get with the curbs, but none of mine need a curb bit.

Answer 7

"Greener than grass." Oh hilarious and you were already rightly branded a very patient saint. I can't imagine any former trainer of mine EVER trailering my horse for a fitting!

I would tell them very bluntly the SS lady is going to tell them what she needs to so that she may sell a saddle and more. Simply put, these people work for money, some a commission per saddle even, the more saddles obviously the better. And if they can discredit your advice and get these green ladies to spend more money on things they don't need/shouldn't yet buy, the SS lady will do it! I think you need to tell these ladies that the horse business is about money. They've asked you to help them but they need to be aware that most people in the business don't want to "help," they want to make money and take advantage of green people. After all the less you know about horses, the more a SS lady can tell you to buy!! If they tell you to bugger off, tell them to trailer their own horses to the tack shop! And sit back as others have said and get ready to laugh!! Its true, you can't make everyone see the light but hopefully these ladies have gained some wisdom and judgement in their 60 odd years.

Someone else said to teach them about bits, this is very right. You should have a lesson where you tell them what these things do.

In addition to the things you tell them, suggest book titles. I've read your posts and you do things by the book. If some SS lady wants to tell them stories and such, prove to them that you are right by showing them the print! Give them reading homework!

Answer 8

WOW that must be tough. I would go to some other tack stores if there are in the area. Sometimes finding a good saddle means driving a while to find it. If the horse has been ridden in a snaffle keep it in a snaffle until the riders ready to move up. but since your the experenced rider I would suggest for you to ride the horse in the curb. Hopefully you know and anything can happen when you put the bit in. Are these horses ever going to a show? If they aren't then who cares what type of bit their ridden in.

Answer 9

I think you are in the right on this situation. I had a very similar experience recently with a client of mine. She bought an OTTB from me to do jumpers with. He is a very narrow, small built little guy and only stands about 15.2 but she is a very small adult only weighing about 50Kg's and 5'2. Her previous horse was a warmblood cross who was about 16.3 and too strong for her. Obviously, her saddle that she used on him didn't fit this little guy I sold her so I took her to the tack shop to help her find a good saddle for him. Here in SA, our tack shop has a saddle fitter on staff so when you go into the shop, you look at a lot of saddles, tell them your price range and the build of your horse and then they bring out a bunch of options to try on the horse the next day. So this chick from the tack shop shows up with 10 saddles that are all at the very top end of the client's price range except for 2. This saddle fitter is insisting that only the most expensive of the 3 saddles fit her horse and none of the others do but the thing is, two of them were GP and the other was a Dressage saddle!! WTF?? My client is looking for a Jumping saddle and we didn't ask her to bring anything else. In my opinion, the cheapest saddle (which was a jumping saddle), fit her horse just right but the saddle fitter is fighting me tooth and nail. Finally I took my client aside because she really didn't know what to do and I told her the decision was hers to make because she is spending the money, however, as her trainer I know her goals, ability and her horse. I have no financial interest in which saddle she choses and that as her trainer, I know she is going to be unhappy with the GP and if she buys it, I don't want to hear any complaints. I told her I know how to fit saddles just as well as this chick and promised her that if it didn't fit I would buy her a new one. She laughed and agreed with me. In the end, she bought the jumping saddle (much to the distaste of the saddle fitter who earns commissions) and has been happy with it. You should deal with your client a similar way. Explain that if she buys a saddle that doesn't fit, her horse will be unhappy and therefore she will be unhappy. As your client, it is your job to advise her and be very clear about your reasons but ultimately, she may not side with you and will have to deal with the results herself. As far as the curb bit situation, I do not allow my clients to change horses bits without giving me some very substantial reasons as to why they want to change. Sometimes I allow it, sometimes not. It depends on what the horse needs. I had a Jr. rider once who insisted her horse needed a pellham (not a chance, he was going super in the snaffle). I wouldn't give her a lesson without the snaffle bit on. Eventually she got the picture. It may sound harsh, but you are the trainer and if they chose to ride with you, they need to play by the rules. All of my clients know that and if they don't like it, they can go somewhere else. Sorry this is so long!!

Answer 10

Hmmm....doesn't sound like a fun situation.
Seems to me you should sit the sisters down and come to an understanding. If you are going to get them started in horses you would appreciate them following your suggestions/ instructions until they are a little more experienced and have a better understanding of horses and riding before acting on advise they get from outsiders that have never laid eyes on their horses. With greenies (especially the adult variety) detailed explanations are usually required. During your conversation I would mention how wide opinions on horses and riding can vary......maybe show them this board LOL. Just explain your experiences and what has shaped your preferences in riding techniques, tack, care etc.. and don't leave out the importance of common sense, too many people leave theirs on the bureau before they walk out the door each day!
Good luck, hang in there.