what do you think of these scriptures? do you think its only freewill when speaking of salvation?

Question

Romans 9:15-23 hope you have your bible with you so you can read it. not to mention the scriptures talking bout no one can go to God except those He called.

Answer 1

I fully believe in the doctrine of election and in God's sovereignty --- I mean I figure you may as well tear Romans out of your Bible if you don't. I mean nothing against my brothers and sisters who don't but it does seem to me that there are so many completely clear scriptures about it and how does one explain those away?

However, the Lord still talks about man having choice, and from our experience here and understanding of that experience, however limited, we can still see that we have choice. I have no idea how that can possibly be, in fact, that will be the first thing I ask Him once I get off my face from the worship in Heaven, but it is.

The Bible teaches both. Both free will and God's sovereignty. It's like many other things in the Bible that the human mind cannot possibly understand --- Jesus is BOTH God and man. God is BOTH three and one. There is BOTH election and human choice. (Btw, election is just another word for those who are called/chosen by God). Unfortunately there is no way to humanly explain this, and if anyone says he can, he is lying to you. The greatest theologians and philosophers in the world have spent centuries, millenia, even, trying to understand and explain this but can't.

I think this is one of those situations where it's best to take God at His word and know that you'll understand it only later.

If we go by God's word, we just have to accept that, *yes* He knows and plans everything, including who gets saved (those who are called), and *yes* humans have free will and are responsible for their own choices, one of which is to accept or reject the Lord.

Answer 2

We must balance scripture with scripture. In the multitude of counselors there is safety and this scripture you are using is one that needs to be seen through the eyes of other scriptures and an understanding of time periods is essential. The case could be made for suicide in scripture, did you know that???
Here's proof:

Mt:27:5: And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Lk:10:37: And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

This is NOT an accurate balance of scripture but someone could use them to justify committing suicide.

God is a merciful God and it is God's will that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. God also knew us before he formed us in the womb. Case in point: Jacob and Esau. Actually the scripture you used was speaking of Jacob and Esau, a different dispensation. They were under the law not under grace. The blood of Jesus upon the Mercy seat of God had not yet been shed. There was not given the opportunity for salvation through accepting Jesus as Lord in that day and age. God called Jacob and rejected Esau simply because He knew their hearts. He knew Esau would betray his birthright for a bowl of soup! Jacob, though a cheat, had a heart for God and God saw that too.
Predestination doesn't wash with me, it is an inconsistent and inaccurate doctrine.

2Pt:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 9:11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Answer 3

Hon, God calls everyone to repentance and salvation.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The problem is that some don't hear His call and some that hear it totally ignore it. They have a different father (satan).

Those that hear God's call and that answer it are the "chosen" that these other Scriptures speak of.

GBY!

Answer 4

You have take the whole chapter, Paul is talking about what God did to the Jews. He talks of the stumbling block or stone he in Zion's path (which is Jesus) that whosoever believed in him will be saved. Sometimes if a verse does not make sense you have to back and read or read further. There are times when you just have to believe in the word and pray for understanding. It is no easy path you walk as a Christian but it can be done. Live on.

Answer 5

Romans 9:15-23

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:15-23%20;&version=50;

Answer 6

Okay, I read it. Paul seems to be saying that God is merciful and full of love. When you're filled with the Holt Spirit, you see things hidden from unbelievers.

And by the way, the only ones God can call are those who have trusted in Jesus for their salvation. Free will is alive and well.

Answer 7

The verses mean that God reads hearts and minds, our inner reality. Whatever we call ourselves, whatever our mouth spouts, God is the one in charge of knowing who and what we really stand for, who and what we live our life for. He calls the shots on who or what is and is not a believer. Calling ourselves a so-called chosen one/people isn't an indication of anything, except perhaps stupidity, for God sees through everything to the core of the reality of who and what we are. The elect are those who God deems meet his criteria, not who we think meet it, including ourselves of ourselves, for we are capable of such vast ignorance and self-delusion concerning our true selves.

No one has that kind of penetrative soul-reading power except God. And, there is no God, but God. Paul's is pointing out the spiritual mechanics at work for those on a high horse thinking they have such capacity and power. Not only is it a reference to Jews, but an indirect warning to Christians as well.

Answer 8

(Romans 9:15-18) . . .For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy upon whomever I do have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I do show compassion.” 16 So, then, it depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Phar′aoh: “For this very cause I have let you remain, that in connection with you I may show my power, and that my name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 So, then, upon whom he wishes he has mercy, but whom he wishes he lets become obstinate.

19 You will therefore say to me: “Why does he yet find fault? For who has withstood his express will?” 20 O man, who, then, really are you to be answering back to God? Shall the thing molded say to him that molded it, “Why did you make me this way?” 21 What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use? 22 If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, [what of it]? 25 It is as he says also in Ho‧se′a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’;

Well you have ;free will to love God's comandments, but like it says ...........What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use

yes God will choose those who have the right heart condition

(John 6:44) 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day.

Answer 9

You are taking the verses out of context. God does not predestine anyone to Heaven or Hell. God gives and God takes away according to His own will. Can we tell a man who was born with one hand that it is only chance he was born with one hand? What then of the doctors whose business it is to make prosthetic hands?

Can a man say to the rich, "Wow, fortune looks upon you!" Or was it God's will that that man use his money for God's glory? As it says elsewhere in Scripture, "To whom much is given much is expected"!

God calls for everyone to be saved, not everyone listens, and not everyone responds! It is His will that none should perish, but that all should be saved!

You have to remember that in the times of the Bible events there was a stigma amongst many Jews in that they thought that only Jews or adherents to Judaism would be saved. What Paul is saying is that God will have mercy on the Gentiles as well! God is the God of all, Jews and Gentiles, although God is not the gods in other religions, He still wants to see all saved and repenting of their sins, through the blood of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, not all are going to accept that, and decide they will do their own things.

God knows who will seek Him or who will accept the proposition, He is God after all. He has also preordained certain events. God works on the hearts of men when they hear His plan of salvation. I have heard it preached though that God will not work on a person's heart forever. If you choose not to answer God's call, He may close that door to you forever. If that is the case, then those who reject God's plan of salvation are already predestined for Hell.

If God knows you are going to accept His proposal, centuries before you are born, and ordains the time and place when you accept His proposal to save your soul, by your acceptance of Jesus Christ, then is it not God preordaining your salvation? Not that God forces you to accept, but that He lays out the plan for you to accept or reject!

The Jews had a covenant with God, if they lived a certain way, God would protect them as a nation and help them through their trials, if they strayed, He would turn His back on them for awhile. Similarly, the New Testament is the acceptance of Christ.

If a person believes in the name of Christ and in His death, burial, and resurrection, and that He was the very son of God, then upon confession of that faith, a person is saved. Since any person can be saved, it's a matter of when and how!

Paul says that a person has to hear a message to be saved, if you don't hear the message, then you cannot believe in that message! The Calvinist view is that SOMEONE will get the message to any person God "predestinates", but what if there are no messengers? Someone has to answer the call and go!

God could send angels, but He instead chooses men to spread His Word. Whether all men are predestined or not, or whether some are, it's not the issue, what is the issue is are you trying to get the Word to those who need it? Obviously, ALL need it as ALL fall short of the glory of God! Can you look into the heart of a man (or woman) or see his future to see if he is predestined to be saved? I can honestly say that if they have never accepted Christ as their Saviour they are predestined for Hell!

Hence, we are told to preach the Gospel to EVERY creature! Whether they accept the propositioning of God upon their heart, is between them and God! And they will have to give an answer for not accepting it. It's the Christian's job to tell them, and when you do, it is out of your hands.

Answer 10

No we have free will. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life and no one goes to the Father except through Him.