How can Christians reconcile Freewill with Omniscience? (Logically)?

Question

Old favourite again!

It is my understanding that Christians claim that:

a) their God is Omni present/scient/potent
b) that man was created by God. (One day we didnt exist, one day we did)

and

c) we are responsible for our actions, as we have been given Freewill

My assertion is that if God creates a person(b), and does so with the attribute of omniscience(a), then God cannot grant that person true 'freewill' (c) as God knows everything that will ever happen to that person the moment they come into existance.

So if you disagree please try and help me understand the failings in the logic - ie Which premise, (a), (b) or (c) is incorrect?

(and please if you cannot explain it yourself please don't make references to bible rationale sites - I've read them....)
(and I also don;t need any pity, prayers, threats of devine retribution etc. Trust me I am well stocked with all three)

the only theist (hey there! to all the atheists who get it already) who even seems to have understood the argument was jeffersonian173 who states:

'you make based upon them assumes an unstated fourth premise: that God's foreknowledge somehow constitutes interference. That, I believe, is incorrect.'

I must disagree that i need a fourth premise, as my argument that God knows all things before he creates a person, means that there is no question of interference, he has no need to interfere, he knows the instance you exist all your actions/decisions etc.

As has been stated by others, these three conditions cannot co-exist. The question is which one is wrong? a, b, or c

Zenmasterb0b - thanks for the polite repsonse - however - the same argument applies, God know the bug is walking towards the pond, but he also knows if it will fall in, he created the pond, the bug, the moment in time - the whole shooting match - unless he is not omniscient?

Mrs BadGrumbles - anyone who can present a logical argument has my vote.

and yes, surprise, surprise I had thought about this before Yahoo, but personal gratification/monetary reward is not my motivation - otherwise I would be a TV Evangelist, but I live in a world were people act on illogical religions (lots of different ones) and that has direct and often negative effects. If one person finds my logic intriguing enough to question their own beliefs that would be great, and equally if one answerer can answer my question to the affirmative - equally cool!

SalD.....

God is/are not your parents - unless you claim they are omniscient. Freewill does seem to be a 'tricky duck' for theists, unfortunately they seem to be struggling with logic!

Answer 1

I think its like Orwell's 1984, you have to believe 2 diametrically opposed ideas at once, 'double think' he called it.

Answer 2

The only analogy I can think of is that of a baby. As a baby develops, it has to learn how to crawl, walk, use motor skills, etc. The parent is there it assist but gives the infant freedom of discovery and guidance. The infant has to do this on thier own basically though to obtain their "legs" and other skills. It is a sense of happiness by both infant and parent when accomplishments are made. In essense, this is not "true" freedom as the parent is always there to help but it is relative freedom so that the infant can learn how to do things. Free will is a tricky duck in the same manner.

Answer 3

A God that knew all of our future actions, would not possibly behave in the way he is described by the religions of man.

He may know of things to come, but He can't predict man's future choices: our future choices aren't written yet, and can't be know to any being because they have not yet come into existence.

The Freewill vs. Omniscience paradox, I think it can be resolved by defining Omnisciece as "the knowledge of all and all things present, and things past."

We should understand the meaning and the scope of omniscience not by the literal definition of "the knowledge of everything" but within the context of Christian lore.

Answer 4

I stand by my previous conjecture that "foreknown" is an entirely different concept than "ordained". If you stipulate for the sake of arguement that there is a God, and accept omnipotence as an atribute, then you must also accept that ultimate power includes power over the self. If God has ultimate self-control, then he is able to know something without having influenced its coming about.

You may, for example, see a bug walking along on a rock and headed toward a fall into a puddle. If you could know, beyond any doubt, that the bug will continue forward and fall into the puddle, you still did not put the bug into the puddle. It is a vast oversimplification, I know, but it points you in the direction of my line of logic.

Also, we may disagree on whether or not you require prayer, but since you asked me not to it would be rude not to oblige. But you can't honestly expect that you can tell people not to pity you and they will not feel pity at your request, can you?

Answer 5

None of your premises are incorrect by themselves, but the assertion you make based upon them assumes an unstated fourth premise: that God's foreknowledge somehow constitutes interference. That, I believe, is incorrect.

Just because God knows what we will do in advance does not mean that we are not free to choose our own path. He knows what path we will choose, but He doesn't force us to go one way or another. He does tell us what He will do depending on which path we choose, but He leaves the decision up to us.

Answer 6

All three - a,b,c- are correct.

Knowing and controlling are two different things. God is Omnicient but His creatures are not. This whole experiment with sin is for His creatures and not for Himself. Sadly, it is through this experiment with wrong choice that we learn free will does not mean we are free to do whatever we want. Free will is to love God without coercion by appreciating His goodness. If you can't choose that then there's really no other choice. You can't work under someone and think you can do whatever you want.

Answer 7

I think that the question is not "does omniscience preclude free will" but "how can loving, omniscience support free will".

By that, I'm trying to say that knowing what choice will be made doesn't preclude it but that knowing that people will fail and then forcing them to exist, fail and suffer for it, is not the act of a loving, or even rational god.

(Oh you can't say that god is omniscient and then say that he doesn't know everything, that is a contradiction.)

Edit:
Predestination is not implied by omniscience. Predestination is saying that you have no free will, not that what your choice will be when you make it. The difference is who makes the decision, not who knows what it will be.

Answer 8

Good. Well-stocked with all three... but seriously, i've been in that situation too. The gift of knowledge was planted in my mind (at the age of 16, I read the Holy Bible for more than 7 times, from cover to cover). But it remains "head knowledge". Wisdom is knowledge applied. So apply what you've learn. You will notice that all these questions will be answered in the way God wants it to be. That's called wisdom.

God, out of his infinite goodness gave man everything he needed before. Man (Adam & Eve) out of their freewill chose wrongly. God has to give in to His permissive will then, because His most perfect will cannot move when man sinned.

God gave us all a choice, and we are to make use of it often. Like what's in scriptures say: Before man is fire and water, life and death, whichever you chooseth set forth your hand.

Answer 9

You are correct. The only thing is that we do have freewill. Just because God knows the decisions you are going to make does not mean He interferes with your decission making. He simply knows what you are going to do before you do it. With that said God has done all that He can to bring a person to repentance. If a person rejects salvation until death, God did not make that person choose the way they did.

Answer 10

not everyone is omnipotent and their is a scientific theory about knowing where every atom is at one moment you can know where they will be the way wheather forcasting works but due to kaos theory it is imposible unless you can factor in apsolutly everything to get an acurate forcast even 3 days before. i dont know how one paradox can exist never mind all of them in a single being so i recognise no god as described in religiouse texts but i hope my answer helped with one part at least

Answer 11

Your assertion is wrong. God gave man a free will to choose in hopes of him choosing the right path. God has faith in us, just as we have faith in God. Yes, it is true, God could know what we were going to do, but He chooses to leave that up to us. Anyway, the devil is who brought all the free will stuff into being anyway. If Eve had never sinned and caused Adam to sin, there would never be a need for free will.