Can we all agree that Joseph & Mary had children other than Jesus?

Question

If you believe that Joseph had children from a prior marriage, where did they sleep during Jesus' birth?

If you believe that Mary had no other children, how are James, Joses, Simon, Judas and Salome related to Jesus?

If you need references, here is a list of them that you can read yourself: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/sisters.html



Okay, now that that's out of the way, please answer this question as well: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ag7UMU1mmcXHeM9W9Pzkvr3sy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20070910085131AAyr39y

Answer 1

I have no real reliable evidence and so am witholding judgement.

Answer 2

No.

V. Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen

IV. Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "first-born" son of Mary. But "first-born" is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the "first-born" son had to be sanctified. "First-born" status does not require a "second" born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as "the" son of Mary, not "a" son of Mary. Also "brothers" could have theoretically been Joseph's children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger "brothers" were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus' biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

Answer 3

To clarify my response to the linked question, I think there are no clear familial lines from Mary and Joseph, other then Jesus, because they are irrelevant to a faith in Jesus as the Messiah.

I don't believe that Joseph had children with anyone but Mary. I do believe that Jesus had siblings.

Spiritually, I am now a relative of Jesus, as I point out in the linked question. Strangely, the spiritual side of man is more 'real' than the temporal, in my opinion.



High 5

Answer 4

No, we cannot agree on that since it is an infallibly defined dogma of the Christian faith, bound in heaven, that Mary was a consecrated virgin for life. This is plainly shown in the use of the Greek "adelphoi" to describe Simon and Joses - the same word that is used in such verses as "he appeared to more than five hundred brethren [adelphoi] at once". Presumably these 500+ were not all Mary and Joseph's children. So, if the 500 "adelphoi" were not Mary's children, there is no reason to assume that the 2 or 3 "adelphoi" were her children either. Joses, Simon and Judas were the "brethren" of Jesus, as were hundreds of other people. This fact was known and accepted by every Christian on earth until a few hundred years ago, when the manmade tradition of sola scriptura first appeared. The doctrinal chaos that has ensued since then speaks for itself.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm

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Answer 5

NO


Three things in the Bible lead some Protestants to believe that Mary was not ever-virgin: the reference to Jesus' "brothers", the use of the word "until" in Matthew 1:25, and the reference to Jesus as Mary's "firstborn."

The word "brother" or "brethren" is often used in Scripture for relationships other than that of those born of the same parents.

This isn't every reference to "brother(s)" or "brethren" in the Bible, but it's enough to prove that the use of the words "brothers" or "brethren" doesn't necessarily indicate "blood brothers" at all. This is true is because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic have words for "uncles," "nephew," "niece," "step-brother," "step-sister," etc. All were referred to as "brother" and "sister," which were translated into Greek as adelphos or adelphe.

there are four people that some Protestants claim are the blood brothers of Jesus, an idea which comes from Mark 6:3 which says that Jesus is "the brother of James, and Joses, and of Jude and Simon." But to find out who the real mother of these four are, look at the following:


Matthew 27: 55-56 tells us of three women at the Cross: "And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children."


Mark 15:40 tells us of the three women there, "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome."


John 19:25 is the most inclusive, telling us of four women's presence, "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene." (Note here the reference to Mary's "sister" who's named Mary!)

Putting all these together, we can cross off Joses and James the Less as being Jesus' blood brothers because their mother is the wife of Cleophas.

We can cross Simon off the list because Mark 3:18 tells us he is a Canaanite, "And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite..."

Jude, we are told in Jude 1:1, is the "servant of Jesus Christ and the brother of James."

In addition to this, Jesus could well have had step-brothers, as Church Tradition and early Church writings tell us that Joseph was an older man when Mary, a consecrated virgin, was betrothed to him so that he could act as her protector when she got to be of age enough to "defile the Temple"

And finally, if Jesus had brothers and sisters, don't you think their descendants would know it? At least in the first 300 years or so of the Church? Where were they? Did they speak of "Uncle Jesus" often? I'd think that if He had all of these brothers, sisters, nieces, and nephews around, there'd have been some word of it.

Some Protestants say that the use of the word "firstborn" indicates that Mary had other children, but they are simply being ignorant of Jewish law, Pidyon ha-Ben in particular. Pidyon ha-Ben is the "Redemption of the Firstborn," who were to have been consecrated to God and serve as priests and Temple workers. The "firstborn" is the male child that "opens the womb". If the child that "opens the womb" is a female child, there is no "firstborn" for the family because the child that "opened the womb" is not a masculine child. If no more children are born after the firstborn, the firstborn still has the status and title of "firstborn."


I have my references.
Seek knowledge.

Answer 6

Of course they had other children. It is in the Bible plain and simple.
As for the second question, can you imagine what humans would do if they thought there was some kind of quasi-demigod
bloodline around? They would all go nuts and worship them. Secondly this is proven by the fact there is no tomb of Moses anywhere - to stop people worshiping his bones at a shrine. Thirdly His brothers and sisters were only human and probably not too famous. So it is a Divine safety devise to stop man worhip.

Answer 7

The Bible is the only ref. you need.Joseph had no children from a prior marriage. James and the others are Jesus half brothers.

Answer 8

I read the article, and it has some very valid points.

With that being said I still choose to believe that Mary remained a Virgin and that she and Joseph had no other children.

Tradition is part of it. Plus, it is what my faith teaches, and what I believe.

Answer 9

Well we have no evidence that Joseph had prior children. If he did perhaps they were already grown.

Second, Mary did in fact have other children. I do not believe in the eternal virginity of Mary.

Answer 10

We Catholics do not agree that Joseph and Mary had other children. For the Catholic perspective click here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm

For info on the perpetual virginity of Mary click here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_ever_virgin.asp

Answer 11

One Question at a time.