For Jehovah Witnesses: Question regarding the "1914 Doctrine"?

Question

Is this a widely held view among you, or is there in fact dissension about it as this article implies?

Charlotte, NC (Bluehost/PRWEB ) August 14, 2007 -- A reform group called The Bene Yeshua, meaning in Hebrew "children or students of Yeshua (Jesus)," believes it has proven that a core doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses conflicts with the Bible itself.

The "1914 doctrine" of Jehovah's Witnesses has been a source of debate and controversy because it misleads adherents into believing that the first destruction of Jerusalem took place in 607 BCE instead of the scholarly accepted date of 586 BCE, excommunicating adherents that challenge it. Providing an entirely scriptural argument against the doctrine is significant because Jehovah's Witnesses argue that only the Bible should be used to establish biblical chronology.

One of the primary doctrines of the Jehovah's Witness faith is that Jesus' second coming or "presence" occurred in the year 1914, the year World War I began. Since that year, Jesus has been ruling as king, waiting to collect a small remnant of humans that will co-rule with him in heaven. Once the last human has been collected, there will be a period of worldwide hardship and suffering that culminates with Armageddon, the great war between God and the Devil.

To Greg M: are you a former Witness?

OneGammyLeg: .

One important reason that historians know that the chronological information given in the Babylonian chronicles is that Ptolemy records a large number of ancient astronomical observations from the periods covered by the Canon King list. This reinforced the absolute chronology for the periods it covered.
But some astronomers disagree with Ptolemy's observations. He was accused of fabricating information. The most sensational protest was by Dr. Robert Newton. But a number of scholars disagree with Newton, accusing faulty methods and analysis. Newton even accused Ptolemy of inventing the King list. But Newton is not a historian and not an expert on Babylonian chronology. He has not studied sources other than Ptolemy. Ptolemy's Canon is in complete agreement with the list that Berossus made 400 years earlier.

Today, historians do not need Ptolemy's canon or astronomical data in order to fix the lengths of th

To All: If I am to consider attending JW group meeting, I just need some of the more nagging questions answered.
I will continue to seek knowledge.

Keiichi: Take it from someone who is trying to gain knowledge. Your source list is poor. It needs to be specific or nobody will give your words any weight.

To any who can answer: Doesn't the fact that there was no year zero deal a blow to the 1914 date? We went from 1BC to 1AD, so you'd come up with 1915, not 1914. Was 1914 said to be the date because WW One started then?

Answer 1

The data refuting their date of 607 BCE is so overwhelming that only by refusing to look at data other than what the governing board gives them can they hang onto that date.

EDIT: Polyman, google search for the data. Check carefully when you pull the web page up to make sure it's not a JW sponsored site. Judge for yourself if the date for the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BCE.

Update!: despite the denials of Hannah J Paul, let me give you some info...
From: The Temple Mount in Jerusalem

Website: http://www.templemount.org/destruct1.html

By: Lambert Dolphin

Quote from the website: "The Lamentations of Jeremiah are read every year, to this day, by devout Jews gathering at the Western Wall of the Temple Mount on the 9th day of the month of Av. It was on the 9th of Av, 586 B.C.E. that the magnificent temple of Solomon was destroyed. It was on the 9th of Av in the year 70 C.E. that the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans."

His reply to me: "Dear Mr. Powers, All main stream Christian and Jewish Bible scholars take the 9th of Av, 586 BC as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar."

His suggestions for further research:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/n/nebuchad.asp

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nebuchadnezzar.html

Update: Their leader Rutherford came up with 1915, then had to adjust...hmmm...due to the start of WW1.

For many years the WTS has preached that the generation of 1914 will not die out completely before seeing the extermination of this wicked system of things, and the establishment of Jehovah’s government on earth. The question is what constitutes this generation? The definition of “this generation” has been changed over the years, as a result of “this generation” dying out. I was taught it was anyone who was old enough to understand the events of 1914 as they occurred {around fifteen years of age}. Then the age of understanding was changed to 10 years of age around the early 80’s. During the mid 80’s “the generation” was changed to anyone born during 1914 or before. Now with time running out around 1995 the Governing Body started putting away it aging “generation” doctrine changing it to anyone who experiences the troubles of Matt. 24 and witness Christ return to dispense justice by thus eliminating another embarrassing timetable.

Answer 2

To answer your question in a brief way, no there is no dissention among Jehovah's Witnesses about this. The article you quote is very wrong however about Jehovah's Witnesses only using the Bible to establish biblical chronology. The publications of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society use many sources outside the Bible to establish this. The fact that the date 607 vs. 586 rages on does not change the fact that 1914 is the year that many prophecies of Jesus (Matt. 24, Luke 21) and others in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:1-5) began to show a significant fulfillment.

There is so much to this prophecy, if you want a truly detailed explanation you really should ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses personally. We will not try to badger you into accepting our beliefs, but if you truly want to know what we believe, we are happy to explain using the scriptures and other references!

Also, I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses most of my life, and I have never heard of anyone being "excommunicated", or as we refer to it, disfellowshipped, for questioning this teaching. Just a point of reason: if someone doesn't want to believe the teachings of a religion, he does not have to remain in that religion. That is why it is so important to find out what the Bible teaches, not just what is popularly accepted!

Answer 3

If you would read your Bible more carefully you would know the answer to your own question. First of all the "coming" of Jesus to the earth means that a time would come when he would direct his special attention to the the earth's affairs. In order to do that he would first need to be enthroned as king by his father Jehovah. Daniel 7:13,14 prophecies about the son of man (Jesus) that gains access to the Ancient of Days (Jehovah). And is given ruler-ship and Kingdom. When does this happen ? Daniel 4:16,17 says that 7 prophetic times had to pass before this could happen. 7x360= 2,520. Counting from 607ce. we arrive at the date of 1914. Would Jesus enthronement in heaven mean that there would be peace and harmony on earth ? Quite the contrary. Revelation says that Jesus would be enthroned in a time of terrible turmoil. Notice what Revelation 7:10-12 says "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down,who accuses them day and night before our God" Verse 12 goes on to say Woe for the earth and for the sea,because the devil has come down to you.having great anger,knowing he has a short period of time. Since 1914 Jesus has been very busy directing the, good news of the Kingdom, preaching work using his angels and his earthly representatives. Matthew 24:14 Rev. 14:6,7. When the preaching work is over Jesus will end his presence or coming by attacking and destroying those those that do not know God and who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 2 Tess. 1:6-9. Jesus will be invisible during all this time ? How do we know ? Because 1 Peter 3:18 says that he was made "alive in the spirit". And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God."

Answer 4

Hello there. All implications of this article to one side, no there is no dissension among Christian Witnesses of Jehovah. You are quite right, of course, that the teaching concerning 1914 has been a source of debate and controversy among many. But among Jehovah's people? No. We believe that Christ began ruling in 1914, yes.

And the Witnesses do not contend that only the Bible should be used to establish biblical chronology. I myself have done the entire chronological workout. It can be established using secular chronology and Bible chronology as well as Bible prophecy that the destruction of Jerusalem took place in 607 B.C.E. rather than the scholarly accepted date of 586 which you noted. There are strong arguments both for and against the date of 607 B.C.E. Of course, the argument for cannot possibly be posted here.

Thank you for the question. It is a good one.

Hannah J Paul

Answer 5

Jehovah’s Witnesses are right for sticking to the Bible’s chronology of 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem. Arguments for 587 BCE are scripturally flawed, causing four Bible prophecies to fail. The year 607 BCE really is the only date that works with the Bible.

WHY???
See link below:

Answer 6

Without a doubt, the date 607 B.C.E. is a very important date in the Watchtower's chronology. In fact, it has become a crucial underpinning for an entire superstructure of prophetic interpretations that have been built upon the date of 1914.

The justification for accepting that date is based upon another key date—539 B.C.E.—as marking the fall of Babylon. Historians are in agreement on that date also. But, the discrepancy comes in because the Bible says that Jerusalem would be desolate for 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:11-12 says: "And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation."

Remembering that the numbers get smaller going forward to the current era, the Watchtower allows two years for the Jews to travel back to Jerusalem; arriving back in their city in 537 B.C.E. Accounting for the 70-year desolation, the Watchtower merely counts back seven decades to arrive at 607 B.C.E. as the date for the fall of Jerusalem.

New Topic: Year Zero

The concept of a year "zero" is a modern myth (but a very popular one). In our calendar, C.E. 1 follows immediately after 1 B.C.E. with no intervening year zero. So a person who was born in 10 B.C.E. and died in C.E. 10, would have died at the age of 19, not 20.

The same is true with the 2,520 years. If you were to count down from year 607BC then back up to 1914AD using the year zero you get 1915AD. Since there is no year zero we instead get 1914AD.

Answer 7

Unfortunately you are basing your argument on flawed information.

The information to get to the year 586 BCE was by the second century Greek scholar Claudius Ptolmey.
His 'evidence' has been considered to be fraudulent and deliberately fabricated.

It and all of his work is now considered to be unreliable by many experts in the field.

You really should get up to date with the facts.

Answer 8

C T Russell came up with the 1914 date BEFORE World War I started. He said in 'Bible Examiner'...the seven times will end in A.D. 1914; when Jerusalem shall be delivered forever, and the Jew say of the Deliverer, "Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him and He will save us." When Gentile Governments shall have been dashed to pieces; when God shall have poured out of his fury upon the nations, and they acknowledge him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.'

Unfortunately, although the 1914 date remains, ideas about what was supposed to happen then HAVE changed and there would be great dissention IF JWs today knew the half of it! The quote above should be quite shocking to this generation of JW converts as it proves Russell believed Armagedon would be unleased in 1914 and that the city of Jerusalem (the earthly one) would be delivered then. JWs are not to blame for not knowing this, however, because in modern JW literature this damning quote has been edited, as follows:

'In the year 1876 the 24 year old Russell made a contribution on the subject to this magazine. It was published in Volume XXI, Number 1, which was the issue of October, 1876. On pages 27, 28 of that issue Russell's article was published under the title "Gentile Times: When Do They End?" In that article (page 27) Russell said: "The seven times will end in A.D. 1914." And quotes no more of that sentence!

The issue here is not that Russell changed his mind about what would happen in 1914 (after 1914 passed, without the anticipated Armageddon) but that the Wt.Soc is so keen to offer as evidence of its godly guidance partial quotes that are designed to hide its clearly ungodly error. And they won't admit to it.

Answer 9

it's not a view. it's fact. the scriptures give us dates that we then use mathematics (which everyone knows and uses) to calculate to the year 1914. also, if you even were to read any secular information, many leaders & commentators, etc have said that things have much worsened on the earth since that year. it's true, they have. no one can deny that.

Answer 10

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/

If 587 BCE was correct many prophecies would have failed.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/conclusion.html

Answer 11

Interestingly, Jehovah's Witnesses themselves freely acknowledge that the date of 607 BCE results from reconciling archeology with bible research, rather than from secular archeology alone. When anti-Witnesses pretend that this date is impossible, they perhaps ignore the evidence that has convinced Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/

Regarding 1914, the Scriptures do show that Jesus sat on the throne of the Messianic Kingship that year. In hindsight, most of humankind can see the historic upheaval that began with World War I. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that mankind in general has seen a wide range of specific signs since 1914, and that anyone can perceive these as significant without even opening a bible.

Yet the bible DOES comment upon it! Jesus foretold this specific collection of signs as evidence that his "presence" or so-called 'second coming' had arrived. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that "presence" to be Jesus' presence as the King of God's Kingdom. Citations are from both New World Translation (NWT) and Youngs Literal Translation (YLT).

(Matthew 24:3, NWT) disciples approached [Jesus] privately, saying: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence
(Matthew 24:3, YLT) the disciples came near to [Jesus], saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence...?

(Luke 21:7,24, NWT) Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?
(Luke 21:7,24, YLT) Teacher, when, then, shall these things be? and what is the sign when these things may be about to happen?'

Amazingly, since the 1870's, Jehovah's Witnesses had recognized 1914 as a significant year according to the chronology indicated in bible prophecy. Decades before 1914, Witnesses noted that Jesus' discussion of his second "coming", or second "presence" specifically mentions "the appointed times of the nations", which Jehovah's Witnesses believe to be a centuries-long period of relative godlessness when God's rulership through the Davidic kingship was interrupted (the line of hereditary kings beginning with King David of Israel). Jehovah's Witnesses recognize that the Davidic kingship ended in 607 BCE when Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and would begin again during the fulfillment of the composite "sign" of Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

(Luke 21:24, NWT) Jerusalem [or 'Davidic kingship'] will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
(Luke 21:24, YLT) Jerusalem [or 'Davidic kingship'] shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.

How long would "the appointed times of the nations" last? Daniel chapter 4 contains a prophecy in which God's rulership, through the Davidic kings is represented by a "tree". That tree is kept down for "seven times", which seems to be seven periods of 360 "days" (See Rev 12:6,14). So Daniel 4:15 seems to be referring to 2520 "days" when God's governmental rulership would not be seen.

(Daniel 4:11-17, NWT) The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. ...14 He ["a holy one"] was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: "CHOP the tree down... 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth... let seven times pass over it. 17 ...that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.
(Daniel 4:11-17, YLT) Become great hath the tree, yea, strong, and its height doth reach to the heavens, and its vision to the end of the whole land...14 He ["a holy one"] is calling mightily, and thus hath said, Cut down the tree...15 but the stump of its roots leave in the earth...and seven times pass over him; 17 ...that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.



But in history, 2520 days is not a significant amount of time. Jehovah's Witnesses look to Scriptures such as Num 14:34 and Ez 4:6 and re-examine the history using 2520 YEARS instead. From 607 BCE to 1914 CE is 2520 years; so many significant things happened that year, and World War I was only one part!.

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/dg/index.htm?article=article_09.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_10.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm?article=article_02.htm