JW's: If it is true that all activities or teachings that began as pagan are to be abandoned,?

Question

and that is why such things as birthday, christmas etc are not celebrated. Your publications state that something that has its beginnings in paganism cannot be from God, then or at any time. So, I ask, "Have you ever considered your own beginnings?"
From all that is truly known of your beginnings, I would have to submit that the WBTS is of pagan beginings and therefore by your own standards of beliefs spring from paganism and are therefore NOT from God.
Your insights please...

The confirmed founder, CT Russell, founded their teachings based on Masonic teachings which by the JW's own admissions are pagan. Pastor Russell took many of his teachings about the timeline for the "end" from the pyramids and other masonic teachings and practices. He himself was a Master Mason, and as such would not be "welcome" in today's kingdom hall. There are others, and I will edit as I have time, please check back often.

Little Lamb: Free Masonry is a Fraternal Order. Yes, only men are members, have sat in lodge for the installation of my husband as the Worshipful Master (not grand master). There are some secretive things, however, alot of it is common knowledge. There are things you can talk about and things you can't. I am also a member of the Eastern Star (the soriority arm of the Free Masons. So, I do have more knowledge than the average "Joe" on the street.
Thanks for your non answer.

Allow me to be more specific in the actual question:
Since I could remember, the official stance from the WBTS was that if it had it's beginnings in paganism there was no reconcilling it with the "truth". As an example, since the beginnings of Christmas and Easter are stemmed in pagan origin and no matter how much has changed (ie the focus on Jesus, the Christian aspect of it's celebration etc) or how much of the paganism is rooted it, it would still be considered pagan; therefore it is wrong (a disfellowshipping offense) to celebrate them. Therefore, since the WBTS had as it's beginnings beliefs and teachings from pagan origins, no matter how much was changed from that point till today, wouldn't it be wrong to have dealings with this organization as it originated with pagans.

What I am gathering from the answers here is that as long as what was started out in paganism is cleared of the pagan aspect(s) then it is or can be acceptable to God. So, what is your excuse for not celebrating holidays began as pagan holidays? If their roots were pagan, but are not focusing on the Christian aspect of things, then they are okay. Because the WBTS was began with paganistic doctrines and practices and you seem to believe you are okay now, so much all former paganistic holidays that are not removed from their pagan origins....something to ponder here.

Answer 1

Well, I was going to mention the Masonic angle, but I see you already did.

Did you also know that the term "Watchtower" came from the 4 Watchtowers in Enochian Magic, which was practiced by Russell's contemporaries in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, one of which was none other than Aleister Crowley, world renown Satanist.

In fact, the "Golden Age" which was the original name of either the WT or the Awake (I forget which) and the "Millennial Dawn" series produced by the WTS during Russell's tenure were both derivitives of the name "Golden Dawn".

So this is an additional occult angle, besides the Masonic connection. They're worried about paganism and steeped so far in the occult, they are up to their eyeballs in it.

More double standards, so what else is new?

Answer 2

Depends on your point of view. Outsiders may think it is strict and so in a relative sense it is. But the benefits outweigh the effort required. Is it being strict to conform to highest moral standards, those that God asks for? Or is it in fact a source of peace of mind and a settled spirit? If you practice immorality, when you know that sex is only to be engaged by marital partners, some may think that is not possible. You watch movies and extra-marital sex is the norm. But rarely are the bad fruits put under the microscope, so it seems that it is not so bad. The results are nevertheless horrendous. Anything from distrust, that your sexual partner may be carrying a decease, not to mention children born out of wedlock, denied their rights to have parents, having both Father and Mother, and we have not even brought up abortion. So if a person cannot realise that God s standards are right and for our benefit, then they cannot become a Jehovah s Witness and if they want to revert to those practices, they will be disfellowshipped - and it isn t as if they don t know why. Same goes for stealing, drugs, drunkenness, uncontrolled temper, foul mouths, disrespect for authority, and so on. Don t we all know that these things are harmful, to ourselves and to others? Yes, even those who commit such things and more, they KNOW what they are doing is wrong. It it such a bad idea to stop it, associate with people of like mind who make an effort to be a force for good in the world and avoid destructive behavior. Why look down upon those who want to do the right thing, especially when YOU are not making the effort to do what is right. No, God s way is not really strict, it is simply that the world has become so loose that what it seems as normal and acceptable is in fact harmful and they are reaping what they are sowing. What s the most valuable thing a person can own? A clean conscience towards God. That s the difference between death and having a future.

Answer 3

Uh let's see... I've heard the Masonic accusation 1ce or 2ce before. Upon what do you base this?

It is common knowledge within the organization that Russell was mistaken about a thing or two when he started out. He overestimated the significance of 1914 and erroneously associated the Great Pyramid of Giza with the end times. These mistakes, however, are well documented and therefore are no secret. Many of our publications in the last 17 years do an excellent job of showing how Russell and his associates were wrong but zealous in pursuit of truth.

Every time they realized the error of their ways, they made adjustments. That's why Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization NO LONGER celebrate Christmas (indicating that it indeed happened before), use the cross, etc.


Of course, sum1 else brought up an excellent point: Considering that the organization is supported SOLELY by VOLUNTARY donations, I think we're doing all right 4 ourselves. If we ever get to the point where we have to beg or solicit in order to continue operating, we'll put up a huge going out of business sign on the bldg in Brooklyn and go back out in search of the 'true religion'.

Answer 4

What Paul S said.

His people would come out of all nations. If a person is truly repentant and doesn't continue in their sinful ways they are saved, pagan or not.

Jesus said to go and make disciples of all nations. This would also include pagans that were washed clean in the blood of the Lamb, Christ Jesus.

Answer 5

We have been enlightened to know that Satan is not some subterranean mythological character, but he is the cunning god of this world. We are alerted to the fact that the Devil controls the governments and religions of this world from the top down and that people of the world have been subtly imbued with his character and spirit, which is why we must be no part of the world.

It is worth noting that the 1st century Christians had to get out from among the non-Christian people whom they lived among – be they the unbelieving Jews or pagan Gentiles.

Interestingly, before Revelation was even written Paul quoted from the Hebrew prophecies related to the original fall of Babylon, when he exhorted the Corinthians, saying:

“‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing; and I will take you in."

While it is no longer a option to physically separate from the Satan's dominated world, we can still separated our selfs spiritually.

Strange that Jehovah's Witnesses have stopped touching the unclean things of pagan origins a century ago, while trinitarians have instead embraced them and attacked whom ever does not do the same.

Answer 6

Your question and comments would really have merit except for one detail. Even if some individuals had ties with paganism, as an organization we have no connections with Freemasons or occultism TODAY. Jehovah's Witnesses have rejected those aspects of paganism in addition to rejecting celebrations of holidays. Any ties with false religion that existed in the past have long since been broken by Jehovah's Witnesses. Bringing up ancient history is useless unless it has some bearing on present day.

Simon Peter: The title of The Watchtower is based on Ezekiel 3:17.

Answer 7

Did all of you go to the same anti-witness websites or did you go to different ones?

If I knew all of the religions here that opposers of JW's are connected with, I could go to websites that say nothing but negative things about you. But that would be a total waste of time. I prefer to study what's in the Bible and do my best to apply its principles to my life, then go out and share what I've learned with others.

It's funny that you all are intent on casting a bad light on JW's while at the same time your religions are practicing paganism by observing holidays that have their roots in false religion. Your respective religions participate in the bloodiest wars in the history of mankind. You teach pagan doctrines like the trinity and hellfire. And you completely ignore Jesus' last command to his followers to preach. Matt. 28:19, 20. Your hypocrisy will not go un-noticed by Jehovah and his Son. So do your worst...while you still can.

Answer 8

Great Question and great point!!!

I have just a few things to add ... according to pagan mythology, virgin births by the gods are a common belief.... so

Do JWs believe that Mary was a virgin that gave birth?

Guess what?

PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN

If they are going to be anti pagan, they need to be completely anti pagan.

What if we take it a step further and say it says Mary was a virgin in the Bible, so it must be accurate.

Is the Bible pagan? Should JWs not read the Bible then? Hmmm there are so many contradictions.

To fulfill prophecy Roman soldiers practiced the Pagan custom of casting lots to determine who would take the seamless robe which belonged to Christ. This same practice was performed by Jonah, with God's approval, to determine his activities.

At the foot of the Cross, Roman soldiers cast lots to determine who would take the seamless robe which belonged to Christ[Mt 27:35;Mk 15:24;Lk 23:34;John 19:24]. This was to fulfill the prophecy,"They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots."[Psa22:18] This is a vivid image of the wicked forming their plots against the children of God.[Joel 3:3]

Jesus Christ's body preparation had direct similarities with the Egyptian Pagan custom of mummification. This can also be seen in the account of Lazarus. Neither of these actions were found displeasing by God. (Mark 16:1; Luke 23:56; 24:1; John 19:39,40)

The Pagan and Heathen ancients are said to have believed in the power of the throwing of lots, so much so that some believed that even the gods were bound by them. There was a real belief that the gods (or just God) revealed themselves through random things, because ultimately nothing is random.

Baptism definitely comes from a Pagan practice. Even according to the WT 1/1/93, p. 4,
"Baptism preceded the Christian faith. It was used in Greece, Babylon and ancient Egypt, "where the cold waters of the Nile were thought to increase strength and bestow immortality."

Oooops baptism is pagan and that's in the Bible too...

And Job celebrated bdays!

Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

God called him perfect!

Job 1:8...there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

**** And the #1 reason JWs are NOT pagan free is probably because they all have money - Has anyone seen the pagan symbols on money?

How hypocritical is it to be allowed to possess pagan printed money??????

Answer 9

Well JW's change as the light gets brighter there might be things in the beggining that weren't right but when those things were seen to be wrong and not inline with scripture and chabges were made. Where as things like Christmas have those pagan orgins and still do with all of the pagan things such as the tree, santa claus etc. people haven't gotten rif of those things in Christmas so people are still celebrating a day that is wrong even though alot of people know its pagan.

Answer 10

Rom 12:2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. NWT

In the beginning of the search for true religion the people involved were fashioned after this system of things, it took time and effort to prove to themselves the perfect will of God, which continues to this day. The key is "motive." Who benefits from learning bible truths? Of course the individual that accepts them does. There is no tithe in our organization.

The representation of exjw 144,001 is very disrespectful, ask unsilenced lamb how she thinks you are going to fare before Jehovah when you are belittling the "Bride of Christ."

Answer 11

Borrowed Beliefs and Doctrines

Charles T. Russell (1852-1916) founded the Jehovah's Witnesses movement. As a teenager he rejected his Presbyterian roots, joined a more liberal Congregational Church, then left this group as well.2 He denied the deity of Christ and the biblical teachings on hell and eternal punishment. Russell had no formal Bible training, but borrowed and built upon various teachings that were popular at the time. For example, Adventism influenced his denial of hell, and a splinter Adventist group led by N.H. Barbour aroused his interest in end time prophecies. From Barbour he borrowed the belief that Christ returned invisibly to the world in 1874, and that 1914 was the year the world would be destroyed and the Millennium would begin.

Fantastic Claims

In 1879 Russell started his own magazine, Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence (now known as The Watchtower), to promote his doctrines. People were drawn to Russell's sensational end time predictions, and the organization grew.

In spite of his lack of formal training in theology or biblical languages, Russell claimed to be the only one with the truth, and he vigorously condemned all other Christian religions. As a result, ministers of various denominations began exposing Russell's false teachings and questionable character.

Flawed Character

Rev. J. J. Ross published a pamphlet that exposed Russell's false claims and doctrines. He revealed that Russell "never attended the higher schools of learning; knows comparatively nothing of philosophy, systematic or historical theology; and is totally ignorant of the [biblical] languages [i.e. Hebrew and Greek]".3 Russell unsuccessfully tried to stop circulation of this damaging information by suing Rev. Ross for defamatory libel. However, Russell not only lost the suit, but in the process perjured himself in court when he lied under oath about his knowledge of the Greek language. In the end Russell admitted the statements about himself in the pamphlet were true.4

In 1913, Russell unsuccessfully sued The Brooklyn Daily Eagle for libel when that paper exposed his fraudulent attempts to sell ordinary wheat at the exorbitant price of $60 a bushel, claiming it was "Miracle Wheat."5

Failed Prophecies

Despite these setbacks, Russell continued to attract people with his fantastic prophetic interpretations and dramatic warnings that Armageddon would strike in 1914. When 1914 came and went, he changed the date to 1915. Russell died in 1916, leaving his followers doubting and disillusioned by his predictive failures. Joseph Franklin Rutherford then took control of the organization.
Edit- For an excellent discourse on CT Russell and The Masonic Lodge, go to www.freeminds.org. While Russell was not actually a Mason, he was enamored of their imagery and openly states admiration for their knowledge of "secrets". It is interesting to note that a STRONG Masonic tie can be demonstrated within Mormonism,also.