Question for Jehovah's Witnesses regarding.....?

Question

the 144,000.

How do you know that there were any vacancies, if any, in the 144,000 class if Jesus offered this to first century Christians? How can the organization know the exact number of vacancies today without any records from the first century?

The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4 is to be taken literally. If chapter 7 of Revelation is to be taken literally, where then does the Bible say that the 144,000 will come from? (See Revelation 7:5-8).

Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

As someone else already pointed out, JW's only want to focus on the number of people and not the fact that the bible says they'll come from among the Jews...NOT Watchtowerites.

Bambi, I find it a totally unsupportable position that you tanke the number 144,000 LITERALLY, but try to say that the verse describing who makes up this number is ALLEGORY. Which is it?

Bambi, please tell me how exactly it is that you hope to become one of the 144,000?

According to 1 John 5:12,13, only two categories of people, past and present, exists. Which category are you in?

Answer 1

I got this from the internet...

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

The most apparent flaw in this teaching is that the Watchtower takes the number 144.000 in verse 4 to be literal but the explanation of these numbers in verses 5 through 8 they discard as figurative. While they give no reason as to why they take the number 144,000 to be literal, the Watchtower contends that verses 5 through 8 are figurative because the 12 tribes mentioned do not match the actual 12 tribes of Israel. Convenient, because if they take verses 5 through 8 literally as they do verse 4 then they could not be part of the 144,000 unless they were descendents of one of the tribes mentioned. One certainly has to question the reasoning if not the motive of anyone that picks and chooses verses in one passage to be literal and figurative.

But for the moment let’s say they are correct, only 144,000 faithful Christians will go to heaven and that it started with Christ’s apostles. According to the Watchtower there were 52,465 of the select 144,000 still alive in 1935. That means that in 1800 plus years, from the time of the apostles till 1879 God could find only 91,535 faithful Christians worthy of a heavenly calling, but in the short span of 56 years He was able to find 52,465.

It certainly does not seem reasonable that the preaching work of the apostles and the first century Christians would only reach 91,535 people not to mention the next 1700 years. Any thinking person would realize that the number of 144,000 Christians would have been filled long before 1879, most likely in the first century.

Answer 2

*** w04 9/1 Questions From Readers ***

The apostle John wrote: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase "those who were sealed" refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming "great tribulation," which will destroy the present wicked world.-Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, "those who were sealed," has a definite number. However, the second group, "a great crowd," is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion-that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: "It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter." (The Apocalypse or "The Day of the Lord," page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary in the United States, wrote: "The case for symbolism is exegetically weak." He added: "It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally."-Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.

Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of "the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about "the thousand years" of Christ's reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the "great crowd," also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who "were bought from among mankind as firstfruits." (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression "firstfruits" refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a "little flock." (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.-Psalm 37:29.



For more information on the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, see Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand! pages 289-90, published by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Answer 3

We can't & don't pretend to know.
Although if it were filled don't you think God would have sent His Son back to earth, already????

And it is "Spiritual Israel" that make up the 144,000
not the earthly Israel.
The nation of Israel lost their favor as God's chosen ppl
@ the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Only, may they gain it back by accepting Jesus the Christ as 'the Messiah.'
You don't need to be disrespecful calling ppl "Watchtowerites." How childishly, Rude.
Name Calling-yeah that is childish.

Answer 4

we don´t know, remember that group will rule the earth with Jesus according to Revelation 5:10 they will help Jesus in the transformation of the earth in a paradise as God almighty decided from the begining (Genesis 1:27-28), nobody wants to die, Jesus die for you and recover what Adam and Eve losted eternal life in earth where God decided to create us, They will rule and help Jesus in that precious duty.

Answer 5

Jehovah's Witnesses do not pretend to know how many first-century Christians are among the 144,000 mentioned at Revelation 7:4 (and elsewhere), and they do not pretend to know "the exact number of vacancies today".

(Revelation 7:4) And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand


The Scriptures do seem to teach that Christ would arrange for representatives of that "little flock" to be on the scene from the time of the apostles through "the Lord's day" to Armageddon. This "144,000" or "little flock" or "faithful slave" slave would especially work to dispense spiritual "food" at its "proper time" during Christ's second presence (since 1914).

(Luke 12:32,40-44) Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom [to administer as kings and priests]. ...You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming.” Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us [the "little flock"] or also to all?” And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so! I tell you truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings.


Does Revelation 7:5-8 really teach that the 144,000 would be literal Israelites?

No. Significantly, there is not a single listing of the twelve tribes of literal Israel which uses the listing given at Revelation 7:5-8. Revelation's listing is given thusly:
...(Revelation 7:5-8) 'Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin'


Revelation's listing CONTRASTS with the first listing of the twelve tribes of literal Israel. That was given by the patriarch Israel (Jacob) himself, using the names of his twelve sons:
...(Genesis 49:3-28) Reuben...5 Simeon and Levi...8 ...Judah...13 Zebulun...14 Issachar...16 Dan...19 As for Gad...20 Out of Asher... 21 Naphtali...22 ...Joseph... 27 Benjamin...28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel


Revelation's listing also CONTRASTS with the tribes as they were established in the Promised Land. For reasons explained during the lifetimes of Israel's sons (the original tribal heads), the tribe of Joseph was given the "double portion" and each of Joseph's sons was elevated to become a full tribe (see Genesis 48:1-6 and 1 Chronicles 5:1,2), since Levi would concentrate on priestly duties. At that, the twelve tribes of literal Israel were listed thusly:
...(Numbers 1:4-15) One man to a tribe... 5 ...Of Reuben...6 of Simeon...7 of Judah...8 of Issachar...9 of Zebulun...10 ...of Ephraim...of Manasseh...11 of Benjamin...12 of Dan...13 of Asher...14 of Gad...15 of Naphtali


The bible offers no explanation why the literal tribal names would ever be changed again, prior to the writing or fulfillment of Revelation. Frankly, there is no reason or purpose behind doing so, for the tribal identities of all Jews were lost when Jerusalem's temple was destroyed (that destruction was decades BEFORE the penning of Revelation). No Jew today has any idea what his tribal heritage might be, and even the Jews in the apostle John's day could not prove their specific genealogy.

Frankly, the listing at Revelation chapter 7 seems to have been selected specifically to indicate that this is NOT literal Israel !
Note that the tribe of Dan is NEVER excluded from any other tribal listing, and note that it is inconsistent for Revelation to list Manasseh AND Joseph (Joseph was Manasseh's father, while Ephraim was Manasseh's brother).


Does the bible ever teach that the term "Israel" can refer to Christians rather than Jews? Yes, many times. The bible clearly teaches that Christianity would replace Judaism as the approved form of worship, and those initial Christians would all be part of a new Christian entity called "the Israel of God".

...(Galatians 6:15-16) For neither is circumcision [that is, the former requirements of Judaism] anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.

...(Romans 9:6-26) It is not as though the word of God had failed [in that Judaism became invalid]. For not all who spring from [literal] Israel are really “Israel” ...8 That is, the children in the flesh [literal descendants of Jacob/Israel] are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. ...22 If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known...called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? 25 It is as [God] says also in Hosea: “Those not [Jewish] people I will call ‘my people,’


So does the bible ever refer to "the twelve tribes" when the writer seems quite plainly to be actually referring to the Christian congregation? Yes.

...(James 1:1-2;2:1) James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about: Greetings! Consider it all joy, my brothers...My brothers, you are not holding the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, our glory, with acts of favoritism, are you?


It seems rather straightforward to recognize that the Christian Scriptures (such as Revelation 7:4) repeatedly use the imagery of literal Israel when actually discussing the Christian "Israel of God" (that is, spiritual Israel).

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20041001/article_01.htm

Answer 6

If Told I Doubt You Will Listen...

Answer 7

I can't believe people actually believe this nonsense. lol