We have a man who has joined our church and quickly rose to the position of associate pastor. Since then, he has taken control of almost every department in some way or another, including making decisions for the senior pastor without his consent.
The Bible makes it clear that when a Christian brother is engaged in sin that is unbecoming of the church body, certain protocol should be followed. Here is what the Bible says, and why each has failed.
1. "Approach the person directly, and speak with them with love and concern."
His response was to deny everything, and he became angry and belligerent.
2. "If this does not work, bring two or more brothers to speak with him as witnesses."
He reported the other witness to the deacon board, accused him of inappropriate conduct, and had him discredited.
3. "If this does not work, bring him before the church elders."
When his behavior was brought before the pastor, he denied everything, and the Pastor believed him over the witnesses.
2007-09-07 06:45:20 · 34 answers · asked by Mooch 4 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
What should we do? The church has become hotly divided in many ways on this man's presence. Some admire him, some fear him, some love him, some detest him. If he continues in his current position, he will eventually cause a division within the church. Sadly, since he already has curried the favor of most of the deacon board as well as the senior pastor, it's not going to be easy to convince the church governing body to go against him.
What can those of us who see this impending issue do to make things happen? Or can we?
2007-09-07 06:48:08 · update #1
For those who have asked what the man's "sin" is, let me give some examples.
1. He told the youth pastor that if he wanted to continue in his position, he'd better learn to take orders and expect to be watched like a hawk.
2. He sexually harassed a young woman in the church, and when he denied it, she was so hurt she left the church.
3. He told the congregation that he made no apologies for himself or his words, because he answers to God, and not to any man. (Note to this....there were both gasps and "Amens" all over the church.)
4. He said that Salvation is not an option, it's a commandment...so if you aren't ready to be saved yet, he hopes you are content with going to Hell. (This may be true, but wow...way to show Jesus' love, huh?)
5. He has installed key people in the church to be his eyes and ears, and if they hear anything bad being said about him, he finds a way to shut them up...quickly.
All of these have been verified by more than one person.
2007-09-07 07:24:45 · update #2
Tough question, Mooch especially for an Amsterdam atheist
who has no idea of the workings of an American church.
Still although I do this with great hesitancy I would like to make a few observations, however presumptuous they may sound.
I can't believe the amount of people giving the advice to just
" go and find another church ".
In my experience churches are close-knit societies where people are very connected trough sometimes years and years of going to mass together. Bonds are forged, activities
shared , help is rendered, valuable support is given.
The Church and its congregation becomes more than the sum of it's parts , it constitutes the heart and soul of the community.
It is not just a place of prayer you shrug off and discard.
So don't just leave, it would be demeaning to others who
share your views and beliefs,and feel like betrayal in the end.
Surely this can only be a last resort option.
Your associate Pastor claims that he answers to no man, but
only to God.....fair enough and strongly put but so does everybody else in your congregation.
This can not be used as an excuse or justification for someone's behavior / language / or actions.
That line of argumentation reeks of a lack of humility, even
excessive pride which is not what I'd be wanting in my Pastor
Whether or not any of his actions merit the qualification 'sin'
is not for me to judge. Apart from sexual harassment, notoriously hard to prove and easily denied.
But if your congregation was functioning well, vibrant, and in
no need of shaking up before this man's arrival and quick ascendancy and the majority would agree with that.
And I mean that even those who love and admire him might
consider the congregation disintegrating too high a price to pay, and frankly.........so should the man himself.
Splitting up the flock and allowing the sheep to wander away
and possibly get lost is plain bad shepherding.
Considering his humane and loving comments about being
ready to be saved and accepting to be going to Hell.
It can' t be a commandment in itself, it is a goal to strive for
day in day out 24/7/365 and very few people can make that
stick, and laying claim to this achievement is definitely a sin.
The Judgment cannot be made by anybody.
Well, Mooch you seem to have taken some appropriate and
correct steps to address this situation, and progress seems to be minimal.
Yet if the congregation is aware of your actions, then those
approving will be looking to you, not necessary for guidance
but probably in eager anticipation of any future moves.
So this is entirely up to you, do you have the courage of your
convictions...what does your conscience tell you to do?.
It doesn't look good, chances of success seem small.
I'd proceed slowly but steadily, if the associate pastor is that
new to the job, and that energetic and is given enough rope
he may well hang himself if he's a wolf in sheep's clothing.
The Pastor may eventually wake up and perceive a threat
to the congregation , monumental changes and a divided
Church won't go unnoticed for ever.
The only other option would be to go over the head of the pastor and appeal to a higher Church authority, but that's
risky business considering what's happened so far.
You may well find yourself discredited and ostracized by some people.
And such actions may well be the catalyst that will set in motion the actual division of the Church, it won't be your doing
and your conscience will be clear. But I bet you some will be
happily pointing fingers and shifting the blame.
I wish you strength, my friend and I know you're capable of finding it.
2007-09-07 11:56:58 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 1⤋
You say that :The Bible makes it clear that when a Christian brother is engaged in sin that is unbecoming of the church body, certain protocol should be followed. Here is what the Bible says, and why each has failed.
But what is his sin? He wants to be part of the church and if the main ministor, pastor, priest, etc. believes that he is not violating his rights then accept it for the way it is.
Remember the argument to why Jesus was fit for execution? Because he was blasphemizing God when it truth he was just trying to help deliver God's word. It sounds like that is what you are trying to do - get him in trouble for trying to serve the Lord.
Have you ever thought that maybe it is God's intention for this man to make an impact on your church? Question if he is trying to change the church for the better or the worse - Question if he is doing what he feels called to do - when you answer these questions it will indicate why he hasn't been repremanded - because he is not doing anything but God's will.
*EDIT" The only bad thing I can see here is that he may have sexually harrassed a woman. But that is man's nature. Salvation is not an option it is a commandment - he speaks the truth in a rather rude way - but that is how Christians act isn't it. He has placed eyes and ears in the congregation - more than likely those eyes and ears voluntarilly come to him - not the other way around. You speak all the negatives of him and none of the positives - typical Christian.
2007-09-07 06:55:45 · answer #2 · answered by Mr. Nobody 5 · 1⤊ 3⤋
From your statment you have done what you should... it is time for you to leave if you can not continue to be under the "leadership" of such a person.... consult with as many of the congregation as you feel are in agreement with you and, if they are in agreement... form your own congregation... that is all you can do at this point based on what you report.....lots of prayer time should be given to this course of action by all concerned.
The small congregation I am part of had a similer situation when our Pastor was called up for service in Iraq. while he was gone an interim pastor rubbed some the wrong way and they had to leave... I stuck it out and when our Pastor returned things returned to some of the old way... but our Pastor was changed by his service in Iraq and it is now going to possably lead to more leaving... I am not sure where I stand... it is sad when a congregation splits because of such issues... A split should only be when there has been enough growth that it is better for the congregation to form a sister Church... to keep things small and close for both...and the sister Chruch remains close to the home Church...
2007-09-07 06:59:25 · answer #3 · answered by ? 5 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Just from hearing the out line it is probably safe to assume that the devil has stepped in and taken over a few precious appointments in the church either as a church whole confront both pastor and assiastant pastor or start looking for another church being in a divided church is not a good thing and God can not be pleased blessed or truly worshipped in that type of enviroment.
2007-09-07 06:54:00 · answer #4 · answered by kara t 2 · 3⤊ 0⤋
You have done what God"s Word says;
You will have to deal with a controlling demon;
Rebel is same as Witchcraft; Pray for all the People,and I would not have anything to do with this Individual; You say Pastor is for Him,This Pastor is avoiding having to Discpline a trouble maker;This is why You need accountability;
Note an Unbeliever has nothing to say in this Matter;You are going to hear a lot of trash because satan is a Rebel,so are his followers;
Final note hold Your Pastor up in Prayer,God will
take care of the rest;
2007-09-07 07:06:51 · answer #5 · answered by section hand 6 · 3⤊ 0⤋
Sounds like to me this man Is operating In the Jezebel spirit. It's the Pastor of that church's responsibility to have him removed. God has placed that Pastor over that certain congregation not the church members. However the church members are to lift up thier pastor In prayer daily. I would suggest leaving the church and find a new one. Preferrably one that lets God In to fully operate.We are In the days of Elijah and along with that comes the spirit of jezebel & ahab....
2007-09-07 06:57:09 · answer #6 · answered by Isabella 6 · 3⤊ 0⤋
1 Ti. 5:19
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked PUBLICLY( some versions say in front of the whole church, so that the others may take warning. Perhaps at a church family type meeting, not during a church service. If this doesn't work, I would leave and ask God to show me which church He would like me to belong to. Blessings to you
2007-09-07 07:14:42 · answer #7 · answered by sorry sista 7 · 3⤊ 1⤋
Without knowing what changes he is advocating, I can't answer the question thoroughly. Change is not necessarily bad; it is a sign of life. Who knows what the senior pastor and other church members might want--people who want change often let an activist take the heat.
If he is advocating changes people do not believe to be positive, those people should give him enough rope, so to speak, to agitate until all can see what his (and everybody's) intentions are.
You can't control his ideas; you can wait it out while holding your position, or withdraw from that environment if it is too troubling for you.
The worst thing that can happen is for individual churchgoers to allow the actions of another to undermine their own personal spiritual integrity.
2007-09-07 07:16:36 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 1⤋
If you have explained everything that you feel to the pastor, the only thing left for you to do is pray. Stop saying that he is going to cause a divide in the church, or it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you pray, do not pray for this man to be removed from his position. Positions are given from God. Instead, pray for the wisdom of the pastor and those on the advisory board. Pray for the congregation of the church.
2007-09-07 06:53:46 · answer #9 · answered by The Apple Chick 7 · 5⤊ 1⤋
Write a letter to the pastor explaining what has been happening. If he chooses not to do anything, he has failed in his mission as the leader of that church, and it's only a matter of time before Satan destroys it You might want to consider getting out before it gets ugly.
2007-09-07 06:55:04 · answer #10 · answered by Anonymous · 3⤊ 0⤋